Nicole Smallman and Bibaa - man accused of their killing in court

[ArabellaScott]

Trial set to last for four weeks.

RIP, Nicole and Bibaa. Thinking of their family and friends.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-57377414

I agree the 'joke' was in very bad taste. So if he had won the lottery, would that have made the murders ok?

Im angry too. We are not safe walking home, we are not safe going to work, we are not safe walking a dog, we are not safe sitting in a park. Where are we safe? What are the likes of Priti Patel and the law makers in this country going to do about it? Attitudes need to change and much, MUCH harsher sentencing is needed. They are releasing Colin Pitchfork- why? Why has absolutely nothing changed since I was a young woman? Im late 50s and Im still apprehensive passing men/male groups on the street. These two beautiful young women should have had their whole future ahead of them. May they rest in peace.

@powershowerforanhour

He's clearly mentally ill, surely. I know it can be argued that all murderers are. But this demon stuff. That's not a sign he's operating with full faculties surely.

Why did the demon not tell him to sacrifice half a dozen really huge, fit, scary blokes with "HATE" tattooed on both sets of knuckles and anger management issues? It's a bit odd how all these mentally ill men snap and attack women instead of the big scary looking men or hear voices in their head telling them to kill women rather than big strong men.

I mean, many mentally-ill people’s delusions are self-serving. Delusions are the products of people’s minds after all. “The demon told him that” because that’s what he wanted the demon to have told him. That doesn’t mean it isn’t a delusion.

You know, I had a patient who thought Jeremy Paxman was sending her secret messages on Newsnight. She didn’t think he was sending messages telling her to tidy her house up a bit, or stop smoking and take her meds, or anything else she didn’t want to hear. No, the only messages he sent her were ones that conveniently tied into her existing delusions about Prince Charles being a villain.

There is so much needed to make changes though.

Society as a whole says they care. That sex offences against women and girls are terrible. But the truth is it's words.

When push comes to shove it's so entrenched to focus on the victim.

Why was she there?
What was she wearing?
What was the time?
Why did she go that way?
Had she had a drink?
Did she know the attacker before?
Did she invite him back or go to his?
Why didn't she scream/ run away/ shout?
Etc etc etc

And of course.
Is she telling the truth?

To change that means somehow changing a load of really entrenched views in society and there's just no appetite for it. It's really hard to even get the spotlight on the assailant at all despite years of trying.

Then there's the justice system as a whole. Recent news only 1.5% of reported rapes see anyone charged. Not prosecuted or convicted. Charged. And most aren't reported to police. Needs total overhaul but again, there's no appetite.

I don't have all the answers obviously but one thing I have thought for years.

Is that they need to encourage women and girls to report everything in a sort of amnesty. Build a database. A lot of women and girls will have names locations descriptions etc. Put it all together. Women don't report for a load of good reasons. Let us feed the info. I would put money on a load of serial offenders popping out. And then, with multiple women involved, they might be more confident about going to court. And surely with multiple victim testimonies they'd be much more likely to convict.

That feels like an obvious thing to me. And you could capture it all on a sodding 90s Access database if you wanted to! My point is it wouldn't need loads of massive investment etc.

When I've mentioned this before I've been told it's not a good idea for various reasons.

DV as well.

Even men who attack other men at random.

I mean why not?

Another incentive even if they don't care much about these crimes is that men convicted of terrorism very often have a history of DV, VAWG. it would get some of them before it escalated as well.

It may well not have helped the sisters (although the police response is being investigated for other reasons). But it could well have stopped the everard attack, the man who is being released and also warboys and Reid way earlier than they were stopped.

Just to clear up some of the mental illness stuff. In English law, if a defendant is mentally ill that alone doesn't mean he is not guilty of murder. Dennis Nielsen was most likely mentally ill, but he was still guilty. The standard in English law is a very high threshold to pass - in order to have a partial defence to murder by reason of insanity the defendant must have been so mentally ill he didn't appreciate the nature and quality of the act.

There was a case a while ago where a guy had delusions that god told him to kill people. He knew killing was wrong, and knew he was killing people and that was enough to find him guilty of murder. It didn't matter that his reasons for the murder were because he was mentally ill. On the other hand, there was a case where a guy was not guilty by reason of insanity for kidnapping his girlfriend. He literally had hallucinations she was a demon and trapped her inside a room in the house. He had no idea it was his girlfriend he was restraining.

This guy knew quite clearly that he would have to kill women in exchange for money, and that is what he did. He prepared, he stalked them, he came with equipment and he killed them. He knew the nature of the act (stabbing young women) and he knew the quality (that it was murder.) So he cannot benefit from the defence. He also tried to cover his tracks and sought treatment for his injuries afterwards - this again shows he realised that what he did was wrong. It's exceptionally rare that someone succeeds in this defence -I think it's just a handful of successes a year. They may not be focusing on his mental health as they have decided this defence is pointless to run (he is going for 'it wasn't me'.) His mental health issues will be relevant when it comes to mitigation in sentencing.

I didn't know that their friends had found their bodies. So many horrific details to this case. Absolutely heartbreaking.

Thanks, WeeBisom, that's very informative.

@WeeBisom

Just to clear up some of the mental illness stuff. In English law, if a defendant is mentally ill that alone doesn't mean he is not guilty of murder. Dennis Nielsen was most likely mentally ill, but he was still guilty. The standard in English law is a very high threshold to pass - in order to have a partial defence to murder by reason of insanity the defendant must have been so mentally ill he didn't appreciate the nature and quality of the act.

There was a case a while ago where a guy had delusions that god told him to kill people. He knew killing was wrong, and knew he was killing people and that was enough to find him guilty of murder. It didn't matter that his reasons for the murder were because he was mentally ill. On the other hand, there was a case where a guy was not guilty by reason of insanity for kidnapping his girlfriend. He literally had hallucinations she was a demon and trapped her inside a room in the house. He had no idea it was his girlfriend he was restraining.

This guy knew quite clearly that he would have to kill women in exchange for money, and that is what he did. He prepared, he stalked them, he came with equipment and he killed them. He knew the nature of the act (stabbing young women) and he knew the quality (that it was murder.) So he cannot benefit from the defence. He also tried to cover his tracks and sought treatment for his injuries afterwards - this again shows he realised that what he did was wrong. It's exceptionally rare that someone succeeds in this defence -I think it's just a handful of successes a year. They may not be focusing on his mental health as they have decided this defence is pointless to run (he is going for 'it wasn't me'.) His mental health issues will be relevant when it comes to mitigation in sentencing.

I don't know why the hang up on this.

It's not about a defence for me.

It's that to me, not having all the info, he sounds very mentally unwell.

If that is the case and he goes through normal process then it could well mean a dodgy trial which could cause problems down the line, and in a standard prison he could well be a risk to himself and others.

Going to a place like Broadmoor where they can keep you there forever (I believe) is surely better all round.

I mean I'm not a law expert but that's where they put the impossibly dangerous criminals isn't it, and the other facilities that have the same purpose.

@NiceGerbil, he will only go through trial if he is mentally fit to participate. He has to be able to understand what is going on and to take instructions. If he is too mentally unwell to stand trial then he will be treated and stabilised until he can participate. If he is diagnosed with a severe mental illness he can be transferred to Broadmoor or another secure facility (that's what happened to Peter Sutcliffe, I think he was sent to a normal prison and then later transferred.)

Thanks Wee.

Tbh and I don't know obv but after the total disaster of the police handling they need a trial to be reported and look we got him and he's going to jail and also distract people from remembering their actions etc.

I am very cynical though.

The aspects that shocked me were:

• he was in the park prior to attacking them for hours, so he could have been stalking them for the entirety of their visit

• Nicole witnessed him murder her sister, and that her death was more prolonged. She must have been fucking terrified. I’m so angry

• he posed their bodies

To top it off; the Met couldn’t be bothered to look for them when they were initially reported missing, and officers had the audacity to take selfies with their dead bodies. You just couldn’t make it up, these women didn’t do anything to be treated so disgracefully

And shared the images in watsapp group with colleagues.

One reported it. Otherwise no one would know.

There is going to be a vigil for Nicole and Bibaa. I hope it gives some comfort to their mum. I can’t imagine what she has been through, not just with this but with the way they were treated after their deaths.

inews.co.uk/news/uk/bibaa-henry-nicole-smallman-trial-reclaim-these-streets-women-not-front-pages-1038681

If it's Reclaim These Streets, I'd be apprehensive that they're staging it for their own purposes rather than as a declaration of support for the family.

Reclaim these streets crowd again?

You'd think people running a vigil would have asked the family for approval first, thats massively disrespectful.

Didn’t they do this with the Sarah vigil (turned out to be a self promo op for them).

Yes, thats the group. I hope they have more self awareness than to pull the same stunt twice.

Speaking of Sarah, it’s quite sad that headlines involving her seem to be more prominent than Bibaa/Nicole even though the trial is ongoing. It’s just another example of the low attention their deaths received

It's Sarah who is the outlier.

Most deaths murdered women aren't reported nationally at all.

The Mail had an article that included a photo of the occult symbols Danyal Hussein had drawn to accompany his contract with "the devil".

The symbols are sigils from the grimoire The Lesser Key of Solomon

The sigils relate to the following demons

Paimon, Bune, Focator and Beleth

The demon Paimon featured in the horror film Hereditary and it is possible that Hussein watched Hereditary, looked up Paimon online and discovered The Lesser Key of Solomon and developed his horrific strategy from there.

I mention this because the sigils he drew and the demon he penned a contract with are all mentioned in the Lesser Key of Solomon (a C17 grimoire, later translations and publications of which can be bought easily online) and were not simply plucked from his imagination.

In fact the sigils for the demons found in Hussein's bedroom can be found via wikipedia, so he would not have even needed to buy the book.

Of course none of this is as important as the fact that 2 wonderful, innocent sisters were horiffically murdered. I am sharing the info about the sigils because posters here have assumed that the alleged murderer must be mentally ill based on his diabolic contract. I have no idea whether he is mentally all but feel that, under the circumstances, we should not jump to conclusions about his motives (if guilty).

supporting links

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9676781/Sisters-murder-accused-told-officers-scared-confused.html

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lesser_Key_of_Solomon

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lesser_Key_of_Solomon#The_Seventy-Two_Demons

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lesser_Key_of_Solomon#/media/File:72_Goeta_sigils.png

correction

the demon he mede a contract with is listed here

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifuge_Rofocale

I am unsure of the provenence of this alleged demon and he does not appear in the Lesser Key of Solomon. The grimoire mentioned in the wiki page appears to be of questionable provenence. I am no expert but there are many fake grimoires floating around including several versions of the Necronomicon.

Obviously, like any rational person, I do not believe in there being a bureaucratically structured ranking of ancient demons that can be summoned and forced to reveal secrets, bestow wealth and power etc.

However some cults do believe in such things and it is by no means certain that everyone who believes in such things is mentally ill.

Most deaths murdered women aren't reported nationally at all.

There have been some threads about artist Henny Beaumont's Disappearing Women - a MNer mention that one mother and daughter pair who had been killed were fairly near to her and she hadn't heard about it.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4220049-disappearing-women-a-beautiful-tribute?msgid=106547110