DS teacher told him boys can be girls

[TotallyKerplunked]

DS is 9 and I know the rule is you should take what kids tell you happened at school with a pinch of salt but he seems pretty certain and even made notes because he wanted to check with me because he thought it was silly but when he questioned the teacher was told to stop being rude.

They have been covering puberty recently and today were discussing the stonewall riots and the lesson went on to say that people are now free to be whatever they want to be and that the sex they are is not fixed and they can be happy being something else.

I need some help drafting an e-mail to the school / directing towards the threads that have discussed this previously please, I'm rubbish at getting points across coherently.

he questioned the teacher was told to stop being rude

#nodebate in the classroom 😳

In primary there's bigger all reason to cover trans at all other than the "families come in all shapes and sizes" we already do for gay, step, adopted family representation in pshe.

Primary is about functions such as periods, body changes, wet dreams etc. It's practical and sexual content is only covered if initiated by pupils and then, usually only in private with a second adult in the background for safeguarding.

Anyone saying anything about sex beyond some people are gay, some are straight, these are the changes to expect is a massive safeguarding risk imo.

You absolutely can and should as a parent be able to ask to see lesson content at any time, but particularly when, as in this case, a teacher has used their position of trust and represented a highly biased, politicised, extreme position as fact.

DfE guidance on this is v. helpful. But schools need to start realising: you cannot teach children to be Labour voters and hate Tories, you cannot teach children that the only one true faith is x and that hell is a true, real place, you cannot teach them that the earth is flat or that the world was created in seven days and that this is a fact, all without mentioning the context, the other side of the debate and the good old RSE teaching phrase "some people believe".

Otherwise you are using your position of trust to influence and train children's thinking to your own personal, political views and there are a lot of words for that. And a lot of processes that should happen once it's done. This needs to go to the governors. I'd start with 'post this lesson my 9 year old believes humans can change sex.'

*you cannot teach children this any more than you can teach them to be Labour voters etc.

Bugger all. Not bigger all.

It is not a Science lesson either. Science has particular standards it should uphold. This is not the case for a chat/English/PSHE.

Teacher here. PSHE covers all kinds of sensitive and important topics. Do you think it would be appropriate for a teacher to be giving factually incorrect or misleading information about sex ed? Drug use? Alcohol? Cyberbullying? Nope.

The teacher has not necessarily jumped on to any bandwagon. She probably has not given it much thought and is probably trying to ‘be kind’.

Well that's totally unacceptable. This is really not the kind of subject anyone should be teaching without giving it much thought. It's also the kind of thing on which a school will have a policy/party line. So either what the teacher said is the school policy (in which case I'd be querying it with the school), or the teacher is putting her own views across (in which case I'd be querying it with the teacher and then if necessary the school).

InvisibleDragon - fantastic summary and explanation. I may use this as I’m currently querying what is being taught on this in school. Guidance came home to parents that conflated sex and gender, defined being gay as same gender attraction etc. I just want to know if it is being taught in this way to children.

Well that's totally unacceptable. This is really not the kind of subject anyone should be teaching without giving it much thought. It's also the kind of thing on which a school will have a policy/party line

Another teacher, completely agreeing with you in principle, lazylinguist

But please be aware, some schools do not have a policy on this (avoiding it because it’s too difficult, I suspect) and teachers absolutely are expected to teach these lessons without thought or question.

Teachers should be challenging it, but if they’re not, parents absolutely have the right to do so.

What the teacher has said is scientifically incorrect. Boys can’t be girls and vice versa.

This is what would bother me. When children are older and taught by subject specialists it is still concerning if they are being given contradictory information. But it is really not okay in primary school where they tend to have the same teacher for everything. How are they supposed to distinguish between a scientific reality (sex cannot change) and an opinion / belief. Even when teaching 6th form I'm really careful about making the distinction - I'm religious but also a science teacher and so if they ask about my religious beliefs I will tell the truth but always with a clear statement that they are MY beliefs and have absolutely nothing to do with science.

I'd just phone and query what was taught first. Presumably the teacher has to follow curriculum guidelines so was it their own content or were they supplied with it? Were they forced to teach it? The fault may not lie with the teacher in all this, you need to know where it came from. Go in calmly before unleashing all hell.

It's certainly very worrying though, at that age. By all means, children should be taught about gender identity, but I feel that 9 is far too young. I've just had to fill in an information form for my 10 year old who is transferring to secondary school in September. I was asked if her gender identity matched her sex. She's 10 ffs, of course it bloody does.

I would just say to the teacher you were a bit concerned because your ds thought they'd said that a persons biological sex isn't fixed and could be changed and he was very confused by it.

TheReluctantPhoenix, it absolutely is OK to request (not demand!) to see lesson material! In fact schools have a legal obligation to share curriculum details on their websites. Any school that declined to share lesson materials with a concerned parent openly and cheerfully is way out of line.

Just call and ask, OP. Say your child is confused by the material and his questions were shut down and you have concerns. Parents are stakeholders in their children's education.

Teachers are responsible to the Headteacher who is responsible to the DFE and all are held accountable!

Did your DS get the impression that a boy who changed sex could go on to have babies, or a girl to become a father? That would concern me as a parent.

"all boys and all girls should be free to be themselves, and see “gender” or “gender identity” as a negative label/constraint"

seen on twitter and seems apt in this situation.

It is definitely not OK, as a parent, to demand ‘lesson material’. The teacher reports to the head, not to the parents. And the head is governed by a board of governors.

It absolutely is ok to ask to see lesson material around RSE topics. The school should also have consulted with parents on the content.

@Artichokeleaves

You absolutely can and should as a parent be able to ask to see lesson content at any time, but particularly when, as in this case, a teacher has used their position of trust and represented a highly biased, politicised, extreme position as fact.

DfE guidance on this is v. helpful. But schools need to start realising: you cannot teach children to be Labour voters and hate Tories, you cannot teach children that the only one true faith is x and that hell is a true, real place, you cannot teach them that the earth is flat or that the world was created in seven days and that this is a fact, all without mentioning the context, the other side of the debate and the good old RSE teaching phrase "some people believe".

Otherwise you are using your position of trust to influence and train children's thinking to your own personal, political views and there are a lot of words for that. And a lot of processes that should happen once it's done. This needs to go to the governors. I'd start with 'post this lesson my 9 year old believes humans can change sex.'

One of so many excellent posts Artichokeleaves. Yes - we have to become that parent to ensure that our children have a balanced and factual curriculum that is not tainted by narrow ideological / political thinking. Schools have been totally captured and teachers need to understand that what the unions and lobby groups (and depressingly the PSHE organisations) have been advocating being taught around trans issues is anti science, anti fact, anti safeguarding and often anti women rhetoric. Children are not vehicles for adult ideologies and parents need to respectfully but assertively challenge this nonsense being taught to children.

@MouseyTheVampireSlayer

In primary there's bigger all reason to cover trans at all other than the "families come in all shapes and sizes" we already do for gay, step, adopted family representation in pshe.

Primary is about functions such as periods, body changes, wet dreams etc. It's practical and sexual content is only covered if initiated by pupils and then, usually only in private with a second adult in the background for safeguarding.

Anyone saying anything about sex beyond some people are gay, some are straight, these are the changes to expect is a massive safeguarding risk imo.

And I absolutely agree with this. Basic biological changes during puberty and basic reproduction is all they need to know at primary level. Families come in different formats - yes, also this, but no need to introduce trans ideology whatsoever. In fact the latter has no place in school apart from within the context of critical thinking.

But please be aware, some schools do not have a policy on this (avoiding it because it’s too difficult, I suspect) and teachers absolutely are expected to teach these lessons without thought or question.

That's terrible. For the teachers and the kids. I'm so glad I've branched out into other kinds of teaching and don't need to deliver PSHE.

Thanks all, I've popped off an email using some points here and hopefully will get a call back soon (communication with the school can be difficult as you have to get past the receptionists with any query's).

DS is adamant as to what he heard, he often makes notes to double check things at home. He's quite an anxious child and can get fixated on certain ideas which is why I'm annoyed enough to chase this nonsense up with the school, if he came away with that impression then others did too which should be questioned.

@TheReluctantPhoenix

Although I am gender critical, I would not be writing to the school over this.

It is a good opportunity to discuss what is a fact and what is an opinion and to say that it is OK to not agree with the school on this one.

It is definitely not OK, as a parent, to demand ‘lesson material’. The teacher reports to the head, not to the parents. And the head is governed by a board of governors.

The idea that any parent will be in agreement with the school about 100% of teaching is unrealistic. And a child taking notes in order to get a teacher in trouble is not commendable.

The message to the child is teachers are human and, if they are in general doing a good job, they need to be forgiven mistakes, in the same way as they forgive pupils ‘mistakes’ in behaviour.

As a former teacher I could not disagree more.

"It is a good opportunity to discuss what is a fact and what is an opinion and to say that it is OK to not agree with the school on this one."

True, but the teacher should not be presenting their opinion as fact. Especially if they are sailing closed to the wind on the 'wrong body' ideas which they are not supposed to teach.

It is absolutely ok to ask for lesson material if you are concerned. Clearly not all the time, as you'd be being a PIA but if you have genuine concerns on the teaching of a controversial topic and only do it now and again, I can't see a problem.

You won't be in 100% agreement with everything every teacher says - but that is no reason to let something on such a serious issue go, with safeguarding issues as well, bearing in mind the impact a teacher's words can have as those young minds over time as 9 year olds move into adolescence. I would imagine that OP's son took notes not to get the teacher into trouble but because what he heard made him uncomfortable (a safeguarding red flag surely, of itself!) and it is absolutely right that he should talk to his parents if another adult makes him uncomfortable. No child should ever be discouraged from opening up to mum and dad on things that make him or her uncomfortable. Safeguarding point number 1!

I would approach the school in a collaborative way and make the point early that you're not cross, not having a go at the teacher, but son is confused and you need to help him. Because of the confusion you also want reassurance that the material was really appropriate for the age group (good question might be how to you present the same material to the year below and the year above?), and even though you understand teachers are very busy and guidance changes all the time you'd like confirmation that the head or RSE lead has absolutely checked the teaching material against the most up-to-date guidance issued last autumn and they are not recycling old lesson plans.

Schools are supposed to hold consultations with parents on RSE content (relationship and sex education). I am sure that many schools are conflating sex and gender, much to everyone’s confusion.

Science and PSHE teacher here. I agree that what is described is drivel but would still caution being careful to ensure an effective approach.

I would make a point of speaking to the class teacher first and clarifying what they mean. It's very possible they don't really think you can change sex and just explained it poorly.

If that conversation doesn't have the right outcome then at least, when you speak to the head, you know they are a nutter. I'd then use the PSHE guidance about not teaching 'born in the wrong body' to gently but firmly ask for a more formal response.

Gender identity and sex are not the same thing. And it is clearly not possible to change sex, so the school are taking a factually innacurate and political stance over this. As per the government guidance for schools in 2020 schools should in fact be discussing the materials that they are using and also the lesson plans with parents, if they are going down this route. I would certainly flag this up for the school. We cannot have more generations of children being given incorrect and potentially damaging information. Safe schools alliance I am sure will be happy to assist and provide guidance if necessary.

The introduction of this gender bollocks strikes me as an excellent way to sow confusion.
The very small module of pshe that is sex education is usually really rigourously planned. It usually involves a staff swap to ensure that a knowledgeable male teacher teaches the boys, ideally and ditto for the girls. As primaries often have predominantly female teachers a same sex teacher for the boys talk isn't always possible, but I've never known a school not to use a senior female lead for the girls. The content is watched and analysed by the yeargroup teachers with the pshe lead at the very least and schools plan very carefully so as to be sensitive to early developers, religious pupils etc.

So this 'non statutory' unit from the DfE tells me either less care will go into it- who teaches it and how.

Or the pshe lead is pushing an agenda.

Neither is good. This is why the DfE need to step up and introduce robust, age appropriate non confirming material and stand by it.

You've got a great wee boy there, who has clearly learned good ways to manage his anxiety from you already, TotallyKerplunked. It's not easy to help anxious kids navigate what can often be a very stressful school environment and he's lucky to have you!

As for the lesson, I wouldn't just let that go either. Especially because his (presumably respectful) query and obvious confusion was framed as being rude. And I agree with asking for the lesson plan, so you know if your boy might have maybe misunderstood something before disputing the content being taught.

I would make a point of speaking to the class teacher first and clarifying what they mean. It's very possible they don't really think you can change sex and just explained it poorly.

I agree with this. My son and cousin's daughter (different schools but same local authority) had the same lesson on gender identity at roughly the same time aged about 10/11.

My DC came home quite exasperated and said you wouldn't believe the rubbish the teacher taught us today. We had a chat about tolerance and understanding (this fell by the wayside, because the teacher was so focused on the wrong body narrative and enforcing stereotypes) and about how to respectfully disagree with a teacher. (He hadn't said anything, but it was a good opportunity for that chat.)

Cousin's DC came home distraught querying if liking boy stuff really made you a boy and told her mum that if you are a girl who is really a boy you can go to the doctor who'll give you a pill which will let you grow a willy.

We (the adults) were certain that my cousin's daughter must have misunderstood the lesson, with the teacher probably explaining available medical interventions in a way she couldn't understand. So her mum explained that humans cannot change sex and that it was totally fine to like boy stuff because it wasn't really boy stuff, it was for boys and girls.

Neither of us approached the teachers at the time because it was the last month they were at primary school and we weren't that clued up about the issue back then. And my cousin's daughter clearly had misunderstood, so it was unclear what the teacher had actually said.

But I would feel confident approaching the school now.