Maya's judgement Thursday 10th June 10.30am

[Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g]

Wishing her the very best of luck. twitter.com/MForstater/status/1402310977115279362?s=20

I'll be absolutely gutted if the original decision isn't overturned, but at least her case has let a lot of sunlight in.

Found this a good read by one of her legal team
www.linkedin.com/pulse/forstater-judgment-what-next-peter-daly

If gender dysphoria is a disability, then I using the transperson's preferred pronouns might be form a reasonable adjustment.

This does not, of course, resolve the matter of trauma-informed care when somebody has specified that the HCP should be of a particular sex.

Thank you Maya, this is amazing. In tears!

🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌

Thanks again NecessaryScene. A really clear explanation.

WarriorN*
Me too! I expect there's loads of us with that same experience. I don't know if I would have been aware of any of this if it weren't for the need to find something to keep me awake during the sleepless newborn cluster feeding stage.
That was three years ago. I thought I may as well click on a trans thread and find out what all the feminists are on about. Have been in awe and humbled and learning ever since.

Love that Twitter comment! @Paralithic 🤣

A question for all the experts. Twitter is full of #transgenderrightsarehumanrights. There are tonnes of people saying maya didn’t win. And that people still can’t “misgender” you. I don’t get their anger to be honest with you. I thought she said she would use pronouns as people preferred? She never bullied right?

Im happy to refer to people however they want but I do believe in sex and that it cannot be changed. So is that view completely protected now?

Sorry gotta pop out & grab some more Prosecco! 🍾🍾🍾

[quote McDuffy]Found this a good read by one of her legal team
www.linkedin.com/pulse/forstater-judgment-what-next-peter-daly[/quote]
I shouldn't have such an emotional response to reading such a clear and compassionate piece but I do.

So many well turned sentences in that - too many to quote.

That AIBU thread about Maya is a thing of beauty yourhairiswinterfire.

I thought she said she would use pronouns as people preferred? She never bullied right?

Im happy to refer to people however they want but I do believe in sex and that it cannot be changed. So is that view completely protected now?

She's always been clear that she would use pronouns as directed - Tayler misconstrued her belief as something she would manifest to the harm of others despite Maya F's clarity on this point. She reserved the right to discuss the implications of sex for sexbased considerations (which are vast in international aid).

@2021ismyyear

A question for all the experts. Twitter is full of #transgenderrightsarehumanrights. There are tonnes of people saying maya didn’t win. And that people still can’t “misgender” you. I don’t get their anger to be honest with you. I thought she said she would use pronouns as people preferred? She never bullied right?

Im happy to refer to people however they want but I do believe in sex and that it cannot be changed. So is that view completely protected now?

I think their anger is partly because they believe that Maya was going round laughing in trans peoples faces at work, and using their in-preferred pronouns,. In fact that's completely false. But like chinese whispers, they believe this now to be the truth, without even bothering to look into the facts.

@2021ismyyear

A question for all the experts. Twitter is full of #transgenderrightsarehumanrights. There are tonnes of people saying maya didn’t win. And that people still can’t “misgender” you. I don’t get their anger to be honest with you. I thought she said she would use pronouns as people preferred? She never bullied right?

Im happy to refer to people however they want but I do believe in sex and that it cannot be changed. So is that view completely protected now?

The belief is protected, but not necessarily the expression of that belief (or manifestation, as it’s known legally).

So Maya can’t be treated less favourably because she believes trans women are male, but she can be if she manifests that belief in a way that is incompatible with the rights of trans people. Misgendering would be a good example (although I think Maya denies misgendering)

*Un-preferred

@Toomie

Aargh. I'm at work and can't keep up with this thread or any other Maya news today.

Can someone clarify for me?
As I understand it, today's ruling isn't a simple overturn of the original judgement. More that it gives Maya permission to have the tribunal heard again?

This is a good thing right? It means that the two sides have their cases heard in court again. However this time the arguments will receive much greater scrutiny and coverage in the media.

The first legal round was about the grounds on which she could make her appeal about her employment termination.

The judge for that said that they weren't grounds - so the employment appeal couldn't go ahead.

The appeal was about Tayler's (the first judge) judgment about the grounds - and it's overturned that.

Maya F can now use those grounds to progress her appeal about the employment termination.

This is the end of the beginning, it's not the end.

Oh and of course trans rights are human rights. But, like literally every single other demographic on the planet, exactly what trans rights should be and how to balance them with the rights of others, is something to be discussed.

Does any other group activism demand the right to say “we want this” and this wish automatically to be assumed to be a non-negotiable and non-derogable human right on pain of bigotry?

@MondayYogurt

I probably won't get an answer here but if a trans person alleges harassment via pronouns and is found in favour, then detransitions to natal gender, what happens to the ruling?

My guess is that a ruling in favour would mean you have to use the preferred pronouns, whatever they are at the time.

That's bad enough if the choice is she/they/he but fairly impossible if we're expected to remember a constantly changing range of pronouns.

(Mine, at the moment, are xi/xin/xix, btw)

I listened to an interview with Maya, from a few months ago, and I think she accidentally misgendered someone in the scouts or girl guides by email, (unrelated to work) because she didn't know they were non-binary. She didn't work with any transgender people, she didn't misgender anyone at work, and in fact she stated to her employer that she would be happy to use pref pronouns if a trans person was employed. Don't quote me but that's my recollection. Her contract was not renewed because (she believes) of her tweets about concerns about amendments to the GRA re safeguarding issues.

If I recall the only person maya misgendered was Gregor Murray because she forgot that Gregor used they as a pronoun. As far as I am aware Gregor was never a colleague of mayas Gregor did however get suspended as a Councillor for being abusive to women.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-48295000

Cross Post crumpet, that ^ is who maya misgendered accidentally

I think I read a comment during the appeal that the judge was shown a picture of Murray and visibly did a double take.

@Shehasadiamondinthesky

news.sky.com/story/maya-forstater-woman-who-lost-job-over-transgender-views-wins-appeal-against-employment-tribunal-12329249

Well done.,

The sub-heading for that piece reads: "She was told though that those with gender-critical beliefs can not mis-gender trans persons with impunity following the ruling."

And than it goes on into un-scientific (is is that anti-scientific?) gobbledygook about how "proposed reform of the Gender Recognition Act (GRA) which would allow trans people to self-identify and legally transition from the gender assigned to them at birth without a medical diagnosis." Has anyone ever claimed that gender-identity-whatever that is-is so assigned?
I'm wondering if they then go on to put words into the judge's mouth.

"he did "not agree" that it would "create a 'two-tier' system between natal (cisgender - when your gender identity matches the one you were assigned at birth) women and trans women, with some trans women fearing that it will give licence to people seeking to harass them".

Did the judge actually use "cis" as a description of women?

So you can get in trouble with your employer for misgendering someone you don’t even work with when you’re not even in work??

Did the judge actually use "cis" as a description of women?

In the decision, that term appears once where the judge quotes from the Equal Treatment Bench Book.

I don't know whether he might have used that term during the hearing.

The BBC report has been updated in the last few minutes and no longer includes some ridiculous view that it said Maya had.