Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Maya's judgement Thursday 10th June 10.30am

856 replies

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 08/06/2021 18:13

Wishing her the very best of luck. twitter.com/MForstater/status/1402310977115279362?s=20

I'll be absolutely gutted if the original decision isn't overturned, but at least her case has let a lot of sunlight in.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
19
Paralithic · 10/06/2021 11:31

Right then, narratives from the trans activists. So far I'm seeing "she wasn't employed so this is a nothing decision"

Except that not renewing a fixed term contract is the same as dismissing someone in UK law.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 10/06/2021 11:34

any more

OvaHere · 10/06/2021 11:34

2nd UK trend of the day. Can we beat the solar eclipse? Grin

Maya's judgement Thursday 10th June 10.30am
Bottleup · 10/06/2021 11:38

Spot on WeeBisom

Paralithic · 10/06/2021 11:38

Although the protected characteristic of gender reassignment under s.7, EqA would be likely to apply only to a proportion of trans persons

Why would the PC of gender reassignment only apply to a proportion of trans people?

Tibtom · 10/06/2021 11:38

Presumably this also means the stonewall schemes are also discriminatory on the basis of belief? Akin to requiring all employees to be muslims/christian/jewish and insisting they only purchase from muslim/christian/jewish suppliers?

nauticant · 10/06/2021 11:39

There are two Maya threads in the TRENDING NOW box.

Leafstamp · 10/06/2021 11:40

@OhDear2200

The BBC’s article is crap. But why am I surprised?

Congratulations Maya!

Agree, its's rubbish, Sky is better:

news.sky.com/story/maya-forstater-woman-who-lost-job-over-transgender-views-wins-appeal-against-employment-tribunal-12329249

lazylinguist · 10/06/2021 11:41

Actually I think that part is important too:

Not only is it worthy of respect, but it is also one that is consistent with the common law under which sex is regarded as binary and fixed at birth for the purposes of all legal provisions which make a distinction between men and women.

Well quite. The previous judgment seemed to be saying "We important lawmakers and doctors all know of course that sex is binary and unchangeable - for important stuff like law and medicine. But ordinary women being allowed to actually express that fact, even as an opinion? Nope. That's hateful and has no place in a civilised country. Why won't they just shut up and #BeKind?"

YourSexNotGenderIsOnFire · 10/06/2021 11:42

what other protected characteristics might be relevant if someone doesn't qualify for gender reassignment?

Footnote: A trans person could potentially bring a claim for harassment related to gender reassignment (where the definition under s.7(2) is satisfied), sex (see e.g. P v S and Cornwall County Council [1996] ICR 795 at paras 17 to 22), disability based on the conditions of Gender Dysphoria or Gender Identity Disorder (see EHRC Code at para 2.28), or even a philosophical belief that gender identity is paramount and that a trans woman is woman.

It's in the first footnote (above). This is really helpful though because it seems to contradict the Jaguar Employment Tribunal case which held that non-binary people were covered by the "Gender Reassignment" case. Today's judgment is from the Employment Appeal Tribunal so should be preferred.

YourSexNotGenderIsOnFire · 10/06/2021 11:42

^ sorry that should have said "protected characteristic" not "case".

SengaMac · 10/06/2021 11:45

@MrsOvertonsWindow

Great news. Predictable when you look at the nonsense written in the first judgement but well done to Maya. Flowers
Not at all predictable given the state we're in at the moment.

Fantastic news and a wonderful achievement!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Iom92 · 10/06/2021 11:46

I’m trying to listen to R4 WH on catch-up now, but it’s showing as unavailable?! Everything else on R4 is there to listen to as normal?

MrsBunHat · 10/06/2021 11:46

There is someone at the BBC / BBC news who has been pushing trans ideology as a lovely, inclusive, no-possible-downside feelgood story for several years now. The result is biased reporting on this topic, with much much more about celebrating trans children and the joys of having a TW dad, and very little about detransitioners, issues at Tavistock, persecution of JKR etc. They have to report on the Maya ruling because it's such big news, but it's written in the stye of a 12yo who has been forced to write an apology letter to their bullying victim by their headteacher.

GingerAndTheBiscuits · 10/06/2021 11:48

@Paralithic

Although the protected characteristic of gender reassignment under s.7, EqA would be likely to apply only to a proportion of trans persons

Why would the PC of gender reassignment only apply to a proportion of trans people?

So the EA says:

(1)A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.

So dying ones hair and choosing a different name would maybe not constitute undergoing a process. It’s the nub of the debate about Self-ID really. I think maybe the tribunal is acknowledging the trans umbrella is so wide but actually relatively few are “undergoing a process” or intend to, which would confer a protected status upon them.

Chrysanthemum5 · 10/06/2021 11:48

Well that BBC article falls over itself to paint Maya as an unreasonable transphobe, cleared only on a technicality. I don't think she has ever actually stated the things it says she believes/says.

MondayYogurt · 10/06/2021 11:48

I probably won't get an answer here but if a trans person alleges harassment via pronouns and is found in favour, then detransitions to natal gender, what happens to the ruling?

MrsBunHat · 10/06/2021 11:49

Ooops I genuinely did not mean to break the rules there! - I should have said TW mum, but they often do present it as "when dad became mum" etc so that's what I was referring to.

NecessaryScene · 10/06/2021 11:49

Why would the PC of gender reassignment only apply to a proportion of trans people?

Because a lot of them aren't intending to undergo any sort of transition. They just "identify as" something (maybe even just non-binary).

I don't believe it's been established that that's sufficient to be covered.

That Land Rover tribunal suggested it could be, but it wasn't at high enough level to be binding precedent, as I understand it.

Tibtom · 10/06/2021 11:50

@YourSexNotGenderIsOnFire

what other protected characteristics might be relevant if someone doesn't qualify for gender reassignment?

Footnote: A trans person could potentially bring a claim for harassment related to gender reassignment (where the definition under s.7(2) is satisfied), sex (see e.g. P v S and Cornwall County Council [1996] ICR 795 at paras 17 to 22), disability based on the conditions of Gender Dysphoria or Gender Identity Disorder (see EHRC Code at para 2.28), or even a philosophical belief that gender identity is paramount and that a trans woman is woman.

It's in the first footnote (above). This is really helpful though because it seems to contradict the Jaguar Employment Tribunal case which held that non-binary people were covered by the "Gender Reassignment" case. Today's judgment is from the Employment Appeal Tribunal so should be preferred.

Thanks. So gender dysphoria may be a disability? And TWAW is a philisophical belief?
CardinalLolzy · 10/06/2021 11:50

@WeeBisom

On this idea that believing someone is a man 'takes away' their idea they are a woman. I remember during the gay marriage debate, Evangelical Christians got very upset with the idea of gay marriage because they felt it tarnished their own marriages and ruined the concept of marriage for them. As people correctly pointed out, this made no sense. Someone else getting married in a way you disapprove of has absolutely no impact on your own relationship. What other people do in their private lives cannot possibly affect YOUR life.

It's interesting to see some trans people making similar arguments to the Christians. If I don't believe that someone is really a man or a woman, that belief doesn't impact on them in the slightest. They are still entitled to believe what they like about themselves, and (to paraphrase John Stewart Mill here) there is nothing I can actually do to take that belief away from them! Unless they are saying that their sense of self, or beliefs, are so weak that they need absolute agreement from everyone else to prop them up...but it's accepted that no one has a right to everyone believing the same things they do in order to shore up their identity.

I've been called a man before, I've had people doubt my bisexuality, I've had Christian friends who don't really believe I'm atheist (I must SURELY hear god speaking to me at least sometimes.) None of this bothers me at all. Them disagreeing with me has no impact whatsoever on my identity. It doesn't make me less of a woman, or bisexual, or atheist - it can't possibly take anything away from me because it's just not the kind of thing you can take. So while I feel sorry that Katy feels their womanhood is being taken away by the beliefs of others, my sympathy has limits because the simple answer is that people will disagree with you and you just have to live with it.I'm amazed that people can get through to adulthood under the delusion that everyone has to agree with them or else their identity is threatened.

Yes, really good point.
doublehalo · 10/06/2021 11:53

Wow. Congratulations Maya and thank you for your bravery.

Fucking outstanding.

GingerAndTheBiscuits · 10/06/2021 11:53

So gender dysphoria may be a disability? And TWAW is a philisophical belief?

Yep, that’s how I read it

Paralithic · 10/06/2021 11:53

@GingerAndTheBiscuits

So dying ones hair and choosing a different name would maybe not constitute undergoing a process. It’s the nub of the debate about Self-ID really. I think maybe the tribunal is acknowledging the trans umbrella is so wide but actually relatively few are “undergoing a process” or intend to, which would confer a protected status upon them.

That was how I was reading it too.

Interesting.

NecessaryScene · 10/06/2021 11:54

I'm amazed that people can get through to adulthood under the delusion that everyone has to agree with them or else their identity is threatened.

There was a good quote on this point in the judgement:

the State (here represented by the Tribunal) must remain neutral; its role is “not to remove the cause of tensions by doing away with pluralism, but to ensure that groups opposed to one another tolerate each other.”

Swipe left for the next trending thread