If you were Stonewall WWYD?

[GrimDamnFanjo]

My background is in branding, PR etc plus gov policy and comms. From that perspective I've spent the last week or so wondering how Stonewall will manage the situation they're in moving forwards.

Of course the most likely situation is they will push on as before regardless but if Champions starts to crumble they will be facing financial losses over the few years.

I wonder whether the Board of Trustees is sufficiently concerned to be thinking ahead about the direction of their policies?

I can't see them abandoning their gender identity ahead of sex stance.

I wouldn't trust any research commissioned by stonewall into autism. They'd have to go a long way now to win back my trust.

Ucl gone , swim England gone

Every gay and lesbian person I know from outside of feminism still very much support Stonewall. As do most school leaders and pshe teachers. To us it's become a toxic brand, but there's no guarantee that will filter into the wider consciousness. I think they will double down, sit tight and hope this all blows over, while smearing all criticism as transphobia. It's worked for them so far.

Sorry to reiterate, but a lot of LGB people hate Stonewall. I don't just dislike it or distrust it. I was at one point quite closely involved and trusted it to do right by me. Instead it's tried to erase me as a lesbian. It's ignored everything I've tried to raise with it. It's insulted and demeaned me. It wants me to accept that a person with a penis is a lesbian. It isn't just indifferent to me, it's my sworn enemy.

I don't suppose Bi and Gay people feel quite that strongly, but us lesbians will never, ever forget.

I agree Shedbuilder; as a lesbian I will never forget nor trust them again. But sadly my experience is the same as ValancyRedfern’s: every gay and lesbian person I know personally, other than lesbian met through GC circles, supports Stonewall.

@RoyalCorgi

Stonewall are currently advertising for a head of comms AND a comms planning lead (www.stonewall.org.uk/jobs/associate-director-communications-and-campaigns). That's probably why they don't have a PR strategy at all at the moment - they're completely clueless.

If I was them I'd offer a public apology and promise to do better in future. And settle the Allison Bailey case. And write to all the diversity champions correcting the misleading legal advice.

Was it the head of comms who jumped ship sailed off for a year's sabbatical to get away from horrible transphobic England for a while?

I was at one point quite closely involved and trusted it to do right by me.

This.

It's like the whole 'no, female people aren't having to self exclude and lose access to x y and z - because no one has any way to find them and produce statistics on this'. If I mention Pride now, to the same gay and lesbian friends I used to go every year with, eyes all roll. None of us have been in years, and are clear. Like Stonewall, it isn't for us any more.

the only thing Stonewall can do to save itself is forget the bullshit and learn the law

It won't happen. I think it is one of those organizations where everyone just bullshits each other.

@zanahoria

the only thing Stonewall can do to save itself is forget the bullshit and learn the law

It won't happen. I think it is one of those organizations where everyone just bullshits each other.

I cannot imagine being a feminist and wanting to care about women’s sex based rights and working there.

To pick up a point earlier in the thread - I don't think Stonewall can/should assume that Barclays etc will continue to throw money at it. I think that the latest issues and departures of public bodies/a few companies have given the opportunity to a lot of women to get in touch with their diversity leads to question ongoing membership of Stonewall (and ensure they are aware of the current issues).

The LGB and the T are diametrically opposed.

At best, the T has nothing to do with same sex-sex attraction so why on earth is this a cause Stonewall is spending resources on? At worst the T is actively homophobic (e.g. insisting lesbians should consent to sex with male-bodied people and gay men should consent to sex with female-bodied people as though same-sex attraction is a preference rather than innate.)

So I cannot see there's any way forward for Stonewall without the, dropping the T entirely.

But they can't do that because the insane atmosphere they've created that means even asking questions is met with threats and intimidation. They've checkmated themselves.

Fortunately LGB Alliance will be there to step into their shoes and ensure there is a charitable body continuing to look out for and campaign on behalf of gay men, lesbians and bisexual people.

If I were Stonewall and truly wanted transgender and gay people to be treated well, to be considered equal and to be free from harassment and violence, I’d be campaigning to address male violence towards men who do not conform to traditional male stereotypes.

I’d be saying trans women are men who choose, or who need, to live their lives outside of male norms and who should be free to so within men’s spaces, protected from assault and abuse.

I believe it is men that need to change and encompass diversity rather than compromising women.

If I worked for them, I'd be brushing up my CV & I reckon I'd have a couple of months to exit with credibility.

If I were on the board - I'd be issuing a 'mea culpa' & agreeing that we'd got some shit wrong, & wanted to discuss that. Nancy Kelley would be under the bus, & to be cynical about it, she'd be carrying the can whilst everyone else rhubarbed about lessons learned, etc, etc.

If I'm predicting: doubling down followed by full on Kids Company wipeout, but it'll take a couple of years - it'll happen slowly, then fast.

@AgentProvocateur

If I was Stonewall, I’d announce an investigation by independent consultants and have a media blackout for a month or three. Then I’d make a big mea culpa announcement, admit we’d lost our way, get rid of NK, and say that we would be regrouping as an organisation that supports LBG rights, and is quietly drop the T.

Great idea, sadly a pipe dream.

@toffeebutterpopcorn

Ratner moment?

Exactly this. I don't think there is anything Stonewall can do to recover their standing.

And even if they could, I don't think they have anyone capable and/or willing to do it.

I think I'd blame it all on Ruth Hunt (now a member of the Lords) who was CEO when the majority of this happened. I'd do like others suggested and get a report done up but one that laid the blame at her feet. I don't think the current CEO has been in the job long enough to be a scapegoat.

I think settling with Alison Bailey would be an excellent strategy although who knows if Alison would be amenable to settling, I would imagine it would take a lot for her to give up her case

I suspect they will go down calling everyone cunts

I think they will double down, sit tight and hope this all blows over, while smearing all criticism as transphobia. It's worked for them so far

This. Plus accuse the current Tory government of being behind a right wing smear campaign, Truss is transphobic etc, putting pressure on government departments to ditch Stonewall. This will appeal to all their leftwing Guardian reading supporters
All the gay people I know are totally in the TWAW camp, fully supportive of Stonewall and all but one of them are lesbians, it's always suprising to read on MN that many gay people are not happy with Stonewall. I've had a real roasting over my GC views, only two people in real life are supportive of them, and unfortunately one is super religious and intolerant. Suprisingly the other is an adult transman.

There's no reason that Stonewall shouldn't support trans rights - I'd hope we all do.

It depends what you mean by 'support'?

It's very difficult to support two or more groups of people where what one group sees as 'rights' involves taking them away from another group.

Go back to my roots, drop the T, and support LGB rights.

If only. But I think they’ve gone too far and still have too much male supremacist backing.

@Theeyeballsinthesky sensible plan.

I’d be saying trans women are men who choose, or who need, to live their lives outside of male norms and who should be free to so within men’s spaces, protected from assault and abuse.

Who wouldn't support that? That would be a real step forward in all parts of society and be real progress.

However there are many groups under the umbrella SW has created, and while this would help some of the most vulnerable and probably those the GRC was created for in the first place, safety in male spaces is not the key issue for the most powerful parts of SW. It's a useful human shield, it raises sympathy, where facing that many under the umbrella wish to be in female spaces with female people and don't see female people as having a right to boundaries, privacy or saying no to them is a position with much less support. The absolute inability to see female people as equals is written all over the 'they don't need it' 'only bad women ever say this stuff' 'you're using your trauma/rape/desire for privacy/care for women with disabilities, culture as a mask for transphobia' front and centre information.

Ensuring safe, welcoming male spaces won't meet the real issue here that women are facing with this agenda.

I saw a quote from SW saying they had a net gain last year of 30 new diversity champions. So even if some high profile government departments are leaving, the money is still coming in, and the bright, ambitious, but badly managed staff they recruit will keep inventing new policies for diversity champions that they will then have a safe job to monitor. It’s not really a human rights organisation any more, but it’s a militia in the culture war isn’t it, and war rewards the generals and destroys civilians. The bright ambitious staff want to be generals, not among the civilians. Shedbuilder I am sorrowful that the LGBT movement has betrayed so many lesbians. Joolz I am sorry that SW does not support you either.

I think settling with Alison Bailey would be an excellent strategy although who knows if Alison would be amenable to settling, I would imagine it would take a lot for her to give up her case

Yes I keep thinking how catastrophic Alison’s case will be for Stonewall. Shame it’s not til next year.

I’d be saying trans women are men who choose, or who need, to live their lives outside of male norms and who should be free to so within men’s spaces, protected from assault and abuse.

But they can't say that because the middle-aged transitioners (can't use the A-word on here without being deleted) who have been largely involved in spreading gender ideology are the ones who got Stonewall involved in this in the first place. It wasn't teenage lesbians who approached Stonewall and asked them to take on the T, it was the older married transwomen. It's too early for my coffee to have kicked in effectively: names will pop up later. Those people seek access to all women's areas because they need to be validated. Feeling safe in male spaces won't interest them. They want the thrill of accessing women's space, of being transgressive.