I don't much care for the 'gender critical' handle. Is there anything better.

[JustcameoutGC]

I am relatively new to the Women's versus trans rights debate. Despite my very lefty leanings, I have ended up on the gender critical side for a few reasons. My training as a scientist, my sense of fairness, my personal reaction to the attempted erasure of language like 'women' and 'mother' and the hideous places that he total enforce t of TWAW takes us.

However, I really don't like the terminology of gender critical feminist. I would much rather be defined by what I do believe in rather that what I am critical of. And I am not critical of gender per se, it is the pseudo religion of gender ideology that I have a beef with.

I know sex is real, and immutable
Sport needs to be fair for it to work
Women on jail need to be free of worry about rape
Women need single sex spaces

Is there a terminology that frames this position in a less negative way than 'gender critical'?

imasoulman
Ironic that my own thoughts on this could be considered transphobic but that is how j see it.

I'm past thinking that's ironic as I know you're not alone in any way!
I guess to divide the subset of "genuine" transgender ppl from the wider group raises the thorny question of how you would do this - where the distinction lies. What's your view on that?

Another vote from me for us being "sex people". I've also seen "gender atheist", although that's still negative...

As far as I'm aware, "gender critical" isn't even about the trans issue specifically?

Indeed - the "let toys be toys" things that originated from here was pure "gender critical".

It's rather about feminists that reject the idea that gender has an underlying realness to it.

I think that's a bit strong. I'd say the gender critical consensus is that there are real statistical sex differences, but that doesn't justify societal imposition of gendered expectations.

(Whereas I think the libfem view is that gendered expectations inevitably arise from sex differences, so the simplest way to get rid of them is to deny sex differences. The denial is a deliberate strategy they think will work. When no-one sees sex we'll enter a non-sexist utopia. Some believe the denial themselves, for others it's just a rhetorical tool.)

It also doesn’t chime with feminist studies a while back now,

Sex was fixed and your gender could be anything on a spectrum

I found it odd at first when I saw it on here

Whereas I think the libfem view is that gendered expectations inevitably arise from sex differences, so the simplest way to get rid of them is to deny sex differences. The denial is a deliberate strategy they think will work. When no-one sees sex we'll enter a non-sexist utopia. Some believe the denial themselves, for others it's just a rhetorical tool.

But they also seem to believe in gender identity. How can gender identity exist without gendered expectations?

How can gender identity exist without gendered expectations?

Ah, well, belief systems don't have to be internally consistent. You can have totally different rules for each of race, sex and gender identity.

The magic word is "ineffable", I believe.

That's religious speak for "just stop asking questions, okay!?"

folk

folk folk folk

it sounds a bit funny when you say it a lot doesn't it?

I wonder what the difference between folk and people is?

similarly, people using the word 'leverage' when 'use' would do wants to make me take up heavy drinking again

I wonder what the difference between folk and people is?

Folk live in the Faraway Tree.

folk are shy and fluttery and harmless maybe?

i dunno. it's a really obvious verbal tic of the handwavey 'women have nothing to fear, worrying about men in women's spaces is like being afraid of escalators' types we sometimes get round these parts

Whereas I think the libfem view is that gendered expectations inevitably arise from sex differences, so the simplest way to get rid of them is to deny sex differences. The denial is a deliberate strategy they think will work. When no-one sees sex we'll enter a non-sexist utopia. Some believe the denial themselves, for others it's just a rhetorical tool.

I love this line of thought. So we erase sex. But somehow those pesky patriarchs still know who the child bearers are and they are still paid less, only now we don't have the data to prove it. Winner winner chicken dinner.

GIDS 😁 Acurarate but already taken.

Gender identity critical is accurate for me. It makes it clear you are not blank slate about gender but that you oppose the ideology.

If gender is societal and cultural expectations, surely other differences and tendencies are caused by biology, not gender.

“How can gender identity exist without gendered expectations?”

Is this why it’s so hard to get a straight answer to “what is a woman if ‘woman’ can be linked in anyway to biology”? I’ve asked a few people who I have spoken to about the “trans women are women” phrase this question and there seems to be a reluctance to answer it. I wondered if the reluctance was because their answer might show a very stereotyped view of what a woman is.

@JustcameoutGC

Pretty recent name. I made it clear I am a, shit what am I now, a female centred feminist, in work, in quite a public way. Have been chipping away since. We have left Stonewall. Conversations that could not have happened 12 months ago are happening. I have found some allies. SW shooting themselves in the head has really helped.

I think you mean “foot” but maybe you’re right

Oh no, I meant head. You can survive a foot injury. Calling views that I suspect 80% plus of the population to hold akin to anti-semitism is corporate self harm on an epic scale.

I think you like most people who are obsessed with Stone Wall lose sight of the fact that the genuinely transgender are not the same as the people who self id.

This is absolutely valid however as long as we have the trans umbrella as defined by Stonewall then they are the same.

I'm a post op transsexual with a GRC, boyfriend happily living my life. Stonewall will tell you I'm no different to a fetishistic cross dresser.

I will never be transgender. I don't "identify" as anything.

I am transsexual. This is because of my formal diagnosis of transsexualism from two specialist psychologists. This is because I have had years of hormonal intervention and surgical procedures to remove primary sex characteristics.

@Imasoulman what are you categorising as “people who self id.” in “that the genuinely transgender are not the same as the people who self id.”? I’m thinking that the “opposite” of self ID is those with a GRC, are you more meaning more those with body dysphoria?

@CardinalLolzy , @EyesOpening

I feel that the term "Transgender" is all to encompassing and that is the half the problem when it comes to discussing these issues.

When I was young there were distinct groups, people with Dysphoria were known as Transsexuals and people understood very clearly that Transsexuals were distinctly different to Transvestites (cross dressers as they would be called now) and a world away from the fetishist trying on his wife's knickers.

So yes I believe that on one side there are people with Dysphoria, people who have been given a GRC, in other words the genuine Transsexual.
On the other side are people who cross dress (nothing wrong with cross dressing btw) the fetishist and the real problem in my eyes the people who self id.

A pp has already clearly explained that she is Transsexual and how that should be defined. Along with the nonsense from Stonewall and how they would like to define her.

I know its not a popular thought, but Transsexual women are Women.

Somehow and I don't know how but the clock needs to be turned back so that the trust and respect of women can be regained.

The OP who was looking for a new "handle" could maybe think more along the lines of making allies and inviting the Trans community to fight along side the feminists.

When I was young there were distinct groups, people with Dysphoria were known as Transsexuals and people understood very clearly that

Transsexualism isn't just about dysphoria but also dysmorphia.

Dysphoria is about gender ie its not physical. Dysmorphia relates to the sexed body.

@Imasoulman you still haven’t explained who you feel are “the self ID” group though

@BlueLipstickRocks

When I was young there were distinct groups, people with Dysphoria were known as Transsexuals and people understood very clearly that

Transsexualism isn't just about dysphoria but also dysmorphia.

Dysphoria is about gender ie its not physical. Dysmorphia relates to the sexed body.

My mistake, thank you for pointing that out.

I struggle to retain information in these rolling discussions, I'm often looking back and forth at messages because I can't recall with confidence something that I only just read.
Probably just cut and pasted a word that looked right.
Sorry no offence meant

Gender sceptic suits me just fine.

Looking forward to hearing what a self-ID person is, compared to a transgender person? @Imasoulman

[quote EyesOpening]@Imasoulman you still haven’t explained who you feel are “the self ID” group though [/quote]

People who just wake up one morning and decide that they have the right to be treated as women despite having no intentions of ever living that role.
People saying they are female or male to gain access to what should be private and protected spaces.

Being a cross dresser does not mean you are female but a few will fall into that self id group

Looking forward to hearing what a self-ID person is, compared to a transgender person?

A transgender person may be either self ID or diagnosed.

A trabssecual person is by definition not self ID as transsexualism is not an identity but a diagnostic label.

The issue for me with self ID is that if you were genuinely distressed by your biological sex why wouldn't you seek medical help?

The opposite of self ID for me is someone who is diagnosed. Some would say someone who has had GRS or who has a GRC.

This may be controversial but...if you claim to be trans but need to redefine womanhood to support your position then how can you be trans? The whole point of my transition was to escape male gender roles and stereotypes so the idea that some would want to claim womanhood yet retain aspects of their masculinity escapes me.

I'm vegetarian. That means someone who doesnt eat meat on Sundays.
I'm a tea totalled. That means someone who doesn't drink something that's over 40% proof.
I'm a woman. That means someone who likes having a penis but who wears makeup twice a week.

When you need to redefine what you claim to be you have no claim to make.

Great post @BlueLipstickRocks , thank you.

When you need to redefine what you claim to be you have no claim to make.

Very powerful and accurate statement, thanks for this.