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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Prostitute chic?

71 replies

SoStrange · 04/06/2021 11:11

Sorry for the title. I’m not trying to be antagonistic but don’t know what else to call this style (bearing in mind that I grew up in the 70s/ 80s).

I have two confident and assertive older teenage daughters. One over 18 and one under.

They both like to go out wearing things like black fishnets and tight bodices and very short skirts. They have dyed hair and piercings too. They are fiercely feminist and seem to find this way of dressing very empowering.

I worry about the negative attention and possible increased risk they get going out at night dressed like this and struggle to express this in a way that doesn’t sound like victim blaming.

I actually think they look fabulous but also really struggle with the urge to say ‘you can’t go out looking like that’.

Any advice whoever to explain my concerns without sounding like I’m a victim blaming dinosaur? ( maybe I am, lol!)

Also, can anyone help me to articulate my gut feeling that such a sexualised way of dressing isn’t actually very feminist? Or am I wrong here??

OP posts:
fridgepants · 04/06/2021 18:39

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the user's request.

Grellbunt · 04/06/2021 18:44

Genuine question though, what about when you get bored of the design? I mean with artwork on the wall you can swap it out, but a tattoo is kinda... permanent? Obviously.

fridgepants · 04/06/2021 18:46

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the user's request.

BarefootHippieChick · 04/06/2021 18:47

grellbunt most people don't get bored of the design, a lot have tattoos that they've designed themselves and mean something that's personal to them. And when you get old and they fade you can have them redone in a different design!

Grellbunt · 04/06/2021 18:47

I get bored of visual art v quickly so that wouldn't work for me at all

BarefootHippieChick · 04/06/2021 18:49

I get bored of visual art v quickly so that wouldn't work for me at all

Probably best not to get any then 😂

Grellbunt · 04/06/2021 18:54

True. Never been tempted.

Really hope the kids don't get one as looking at them genuinely makes me feel ill.

BarefootHippieChick · 04/06/2021 18:55

Really hope the kids don't get one as looking at them genuinely makes me feel ill.

Really?! I'm genuinely curious - why?

Grellbunt · 04/06/2021 18:57

I can't help visualising the needle, and the ink under the skin etc... oh god it makes me feel dizzy even typing that. Eurgh.

BarefootHippieChick · 04/06/2021 18:59

Oh dear grellbunt lol

No more tattoo talk then!

Grellbunt · 04/06/2021 19:01

It just mystifies me

I don't have any kinda "moral" objections as such

Anyway. Sorry to derail!

winched · 04/06/2021 19:03

Middle aged men are irrelevant to young women, yes... but not if they're harassing them! It does not seem to me completely outrageous to consider that young women - whose priority is their own aesthetic and self-esteem and peers - might quite like it if the average middle-aged man's reaction to their look was "what the fuck is she wearing" as opposed to "pwooaaarrr". Call it an added bonus.

You are still taking your own personal opinion on 'tattoos and piercings' (which actually has nothing to do with the thread by the way) and extrapolating that out to every middle aged man.

From Statista: Differences in the way respondents view people with tattoos, in the United Kingdom (UK) in 2015. With the exception of those aged 60 years and older, the most common response indcated that their views are not influenced by tattoos. 56 percent of respondents in the 60 years and older bracket indicated that they regard a person with a tattoo less positively.

Middle age is 45-65, is it not?

Then they actually studied this where they sat women down alone on a beach wearing the same bikini, 110 'sit-downs' tattoo'd and 110 of them not. With tattoos were solicited 24% of the time and without 10% of the time. With tattoos solicited on average within 23 mins vs without within 34 mins.

The second part was asking males if they thought they could get a date with her, and if they thought they could have sex with her on the first date, and again the results were significantly higher.

So it would seem (despite the limitations of the study) that males might think women who have tattoos are more promiscuous.

Which might actually be relevant to the ops original topic i.e men judging women as more promiscuous based on their appearance.

But although women who are perceived as being more sexually promiscuous are more likely to be solicited by men... does this automatically mean women who are perceived as being more sexually promiscuous are more likely to be attacked or assaulted by men (either sexually or traditionally)?

In my experience no.

For the majority of female victims of rape, the offender was a partner or ex-partner (45 per cent) or someone who was known to them other than as a partner or family member (38 per cent), according to the Office for National Statistics. Some 13 per cent of female victims reported the offender as a stranger.

So I've tried my best to find evidence to disprove that:

Women get tattoos and piercings in order to put men off them.

Women getting tattoos and piercings actually puts men off them. So no 'added bonus', sorry. Sad

And that even if none of that were true, if anything did or didn't give the impression to a man that is woman is more or less sexually promiscuous... it doesn't actually matter when it comes to actual harm. The head of the Dublin Rape Crisis Centre says there is no evidence that the way a women dresses is likely to lead to sexual assault or rape. And I think she would probably know if there was?

Or does the fact she is not A Man With An Opinion make the evidence (or lack of) irrelevant?

winched · 04/06/2021 19:23

I’m not getting sucked into the wider disagreement between other posters but I do actually have concerns about both my dds’ tattoos, as I do think that they could possibly limit future employment options.

Sorry OP I hadn't read that update when I said tattoos were irrelevant in my last post.

I can only speak of me and the people I know... but I was a Quality Manager and have never hidden them, I've worked with reps from all sorts of Defence and Medical Giants, and the only comments I've ever had were interest / admiration.

Some of them are genuinely beautiful works of art, and some of them I got when I was a teenager and thought irony was the dogs balls. So I have a knuckle duster and a big old naked pin up girl on my arm. Would I do it again tomorrow? Nope, because my views as I've got older have become a lot more nuanced than 'women being naked is empowering' and 'the fact I grew in up in a violent area shouldn't hold me back'.

But I'll probably never cover them up because I honestly don't care enough and have found that people tend to judge me on my CV, quals, and actions / work ethic more, and any unfair judgement / discrimination I've had is 1000% to do with sex or pregnancy / childbirth.

The Chief Engineer I worked with was also covered in tats including neck ones, and sleeves were common in management though some people chose to hide them more. My ex-DP is in the police and also covered in them. I think most people don't judge or see it as abnormal these days, it's one of many things that give an overall judgement on appearance.

thelegohooverer · 04/06/2021 19:29

I’m on the fence on this.

At the age where I was choosing to dress skimpily around 16-20 I wasn’t thinking about what men were thinking, but what my friends would think of my outfit.
Once I became properly aware of the male gaze I dressed more discreetly. And I’m grateful for my dm putting some limits on what I wore.

I’m not sure I can put that mental state into words. Of course I was aware of pervy middle aged men and had been fending them off for years, and men and boys were always free with their whistles and stupid remarks. But it didn’t occur to me that something as trivial as how I dressed was affecting anything or that from a male perspective women and girls are seen to have power in this dynamic.

My experience has been that ordinary men make judgements about your moral value, and what you are up for from your clothing. Rapists are a different matter (you wear a sack to your ankles and it wouldn’t make a difference). But even when I was young we understood the injustice that clothing didn’t get you raped but it definitely could influence how the judge and jury would see you.

In college I had to walk past a building site several times a day. I remember being wolf whistled and catcalled with my hair down and my contacts in. Ten minutes later I was passing again wearing my hair in a tight bun with my glasses on, and I had become invisible. I experimented a lot over the course of that term (I was taking psychology classes) The bottom line is that the men were assholes and nothing that a woman does or doesn’t wear ever justifies abuse. But it’s not about victim blaming to admit that clothing is not neutral.

A 25+yr old wearing what you describe wouldn’t bother me because I’d see it as an informed choice. But on teens it makes me uneasy. They think they’re fully grown adults because they’ve never been any older. I suppose I’m comparing it to letting my dc post videos on YouTube - as an adult they can do what they want but as a child I don’t want them making decisions until I know they fully grasp the implications.

DdraigGoch · 04/06/2021 22:52

They're hardly the first teenagers to dress unconventionally, nor the first to wear clothes which shock their parents. Not a lot you can do. Eventually they'll enter the world of full time careers and become as boring as the rest of us.

DdraigGoch · 04/06/2021 22:54

Tell them that nothing is empowering if men aren't doing it too.
Given the current fads, it wouldn't at all surprise me if some men were. Complete with green hair to match.

NiceGerbil · 04/06/2021 23:00

@SoStrange

Sorry for the title. I’m not trying to be antagonistic but don’t know what else to call this style (bearing in mind that I grew up in the 70s/ 80s).

I have two confident and assertive older teenage daughters. One over 18 and one under.

They both like to go out wearing things like black fishnets and tight bodices and very short skirts. They have dyed hair and piercings too. They are fiercely feminist and seem to find this way of dressing very empowering.

I worry about the negative attention and possible increased risk they get going out at night dressed like this and struggle to express this in a way that doesn’t sound like victim blaming.

I actually think they look fabulous but also really struggle with the urge to say ‘you can’t go out looking like that’.

Any advice whoever to explain my concerns without sounding like I’m a victim blaming dinosaur? ( maybe I am, lol!)

Also, can anyone help me to articulate my gut feeling that such a sexualised way of dressing isn’t actually very feminist? Or am I wrong here??

Sort of like Madonna in the 80s then... ?!
NiceGerbil · 04/06/2021 23:04

'I am saying that women who have lots of piercings and tattoos are less attractive by old-fashioned beauty standards, and therefore, maybe, by having an alternative look young women might get less unwanted attention from old-fashioned / older men. In many ways I subscribe to old fashioned beauty standards.'

How old fashioned?

I'm guessing you must be maybe 75+ from that.

NiceGerbil · 04/06/2021 23:12

'Tattoos and Tea Time
With famous women like Lady Jennie Churchill, mother of then Prime Minister, Winston Churchill, getting tattoos of their own, others in high society chose to jump on the tattoo bandwagon, and tattoos soon became a source of status among the social elite, with even Queen Victoria rumored to have a tattoo of her own.

The popularity of tattoos amongst the ladies of society exploded, and soon women were gathering in parlors across Victorian England to have tattoos done by master artists with their newly invented electric tattoo machines. These stylish women added tattooing to their regular tea parties, and only the most fashion forward were invited to attend.'

😮😮😮😮

Oh NOES!!! Grin

Nightbear · 04/06/2021 23:13

I feel better now a man has explained everything Hmm

’Tell them that nothing is empowering if men aren't doing it too.’

^ this. I’m also stealing ‘lemon-scented fuck.’

NiceGerbil · 04/06/2021 23:14

Dodgy timeline there!

Loads of articles on the net about the long history of women getting tattooed and generally men not liking it though Grin

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