Prostitute chic?

[SoStrange]

Sorry for the title. I’m not trying to be antagonistic but don’t know what else to call this style (bearing in mind that I grew up in the 70s/ 80s).

I have two confident and assertive older teenage daughters. One over 18 and one under.

They both like to go out wearing things like black fishnets and tight bodices and very short skirts. They have dyed hair and piercings too. They are fiercely feminist and seem to find this way of dressing very empowering.

I worry about the negative attention and possible increased risk they get going out at night dressed like this and struggle to express this in a way that doesn’t sound like victim blaming.

I actually think they look fabulous but also really struggle with the urge to say ‘you can’t go out looking like that’.

Any advice whoever to explain my concerns without sounding like I’m a victim blaming dinosaur? ( maybe I am, lol!)

Also, can anyone help me to articulate my gut feeling that such a sexualised way of dressing isn’t actually very feminist? Or am I wrong here??

I am saying that women who have lots of piercings and tattoos are less attractive by old-fashioned beauty standards, and therefore, maybe, by having an alternative look young women might get less unwanted attention from old-fashioned / older men. In many ways I subscribe to old fashioned beauty standards.

Such a look is probably adopted as a fuck you to boring mainstream society, and because of personal taste, but it might just have an added benefit in putting off some boring old men who'd otherwise perv.

I would not be surprised if young alt-women's experience was that boring old men dislike the look but perv anyway.

To be clear I hate tattoos on men and women, and I'm not keen on earings let alone other piercings. People are welcome to do what they want, I know society is changing and pretty much all the yung people I meet seem to have tattoos. But I don't need to like it if I don't want to.

There is an irony in that I have, in my younger days, worn outfits which were less mainstream that the alternative look OP described is today... but I have never seen the need to mutilate or vandalise my body in order to look unusual.

I have to say that I think of tattoos a bit like I do the trans extremist movement - it's all the fashion, and you can't say a bad word against them!

"Tattoos and piercings make you less likely to have offensive male attention but that will be replaced with male abuse?"

I wondered if there was any correlation between how stereotypically attractive a woman chooses to present herself and how much unwanted male attention she gets. I also wondered if "alternative" looking women find that the unwanted male attention is reduced and it is replaced with abuse instead (eg you get a punch or a load of verbal abuse for looking like a goth instead of getting wolf-whistled for looking stereotypically attractive).

I suspect men can be arseholes whatever you dress like.

"Do you think it could be that rapists / abusive men don't actually care how little piercings, tattoos, and clothes you have?"

As above - when I said abuse I was referring to being punch or verbally insulted - not rape, sexual assault or sexual abuse.

"And men who crave attention and enjoy catcalling / beeping / sleazing on women will do it wether they're in school uniform, gym clothes, or stockings and suspenders? Pink hair or not."

I feared that might be the answer.

@winched I'm sorry to hear that.

And @JediGnot this is for you

[quote JaneJeffer]@winched I'm sorry to hear that.

And @JediGnot this is for you [/quote]
JaneJeffer. I really do get that, that is the entire fucking point of my post!!!!!

I entirely get that young women do not give a fuck if older men don't find them attractive.

I am wondering to what extent young women consciously consider an alternative look precisely BECAUSE it might mean older men are less likely to find them attractive. NOTE - This is not all about men, obviously alternative women are wearing what they wear primarily because they want to and like the look, or they want to fit in with their peers, not because they spend their days considering what older men think.

@SoStrange

Sorry for the title. I’m not trying to be antagonistic but don’t know what else to call this style (bearing in mind that I grew up in the 70s/ 80s).

I have two confident and assertive older teenage daughters. One over 18 and one under.

They both like to go out wearing things like black fishnets and tight bodices and very short skirts. They have dyed hair and piercings too. They are fiercely feminist and seem to find this way of dressing very empowering.

I worry about the negative attention and possible increased risk they get going out at night dressed like this and struggle to express this in a way that doesn’t sound like victim blaming.

I actually think they look fabulous but also really struggle with the urge to say ‘you can’t go out looking like that’.

Any advice whoever to explain my concerns without sounding like I’m a victim blaming dinosaur? ( maybe I am, lol!)

Also, can anyone help me to articulate my gut feeling that such a sexualised way of dressing isn’t actually very feminist? Or am I wrong here??

Liberal feminism is a cancer to feminists.

Tell them that nothing is empowering if men aren't doing it too.

Buy some radical feminist literature for them?

Yes- to all those who’re saying it’s alt/ punk etc it’s not prostitute chic. You’re right of course- I do know that the whole fishnet stockings thing is a stereotype but wanted to paint a picture, I suppose.

Yes shadi, it’s the BDSM look that I’m not keen on.

I absolutely agree that sexual violence can occur regardless of how you look. However, I do think there’s a type of verbal abuse that they’re more likely to be the target of when dressed like this. I can just imagine a group of pissed up oiks... maybe that’s what I worry about.

And yes to the f*ck you mentality and to not giving a shit how men view them! Also,It’s a bit of a suit of amour for them, I think.

@fridgepants

What you like is irrelevant. You are irrelevant to them.

Feels a bit like you're policing young women's bodies here, tbh. You can't 'vandalise' your own property.

"What you like is irrelevant. You are irrelevant to them."

I take it "you" means "older men" not me specifically? Assuming I am right, then your statement completely contradicts the reality (as I understand it) in which women - especially young women - get constantly harassed.

Middle aged men are irrelevant to young women, yes... but not if they're harassing them! It does not seem to me completely outrageous to consider that young women - whose priority is their own aesthetic and self-esteem and peers - might quite like it if the average middle-aged man's reaction to their look was "what the fuck is she wearing" as opposed to "pwooaaarrr". Call it an added bonus.

I am policing no-one's body - I am expressing a personal preference because - (a) it's my right to, and (2) I believe that society is increasingly accepting of tattoos in a completely uncritical manner and I believe that people should be reminded that some people think tattoos look shit and unprofessional.

Well I am currently watching a professional woman playing tennis who has plenty of tattoos.

Policing

1. the activities carried out by police officers in order to preserve law and order the policing of public places
2. the actions of a person or group in authority in order to ensure fairness and legality in an area of public life

I presume that you are not referring to the literal law enforcement definition? I'm also willing to expand the second definition to include "personal preference" not just "fairness and legality".

What I am not willing to accept is that expressing my opinion is policing, as for it to be policing I would have to have some sort of authority! I should have such authority, but I don't.

@JaneJeffer

Well I am currently watching a professional woman playing tennis who has plenty of tattoos.

When I say "look... unprofessional" I don't mean that they look like they aren't paid for what they do! HTH!

What do you mean then @JediGnot?

A better description for some of this stuff is "kink chic". Fishnets, suspenders, sexy "school uniform" are all things that exist in the public sphere primarily because they are fetishised by men.

That's not to say that women who wear these clothes as a fashion statement want to be fetishised or involved in kink. But there's a transgressiveness that comes from wearing "kink adjacent" fashion which make these types of clothes seem daring and cool to young women (while still meeting the approval of the male gaze).

JediKnot you said that you used to stress in a way that was "less mainstream" than his you dress now - what were your reasons for dressing like this when you were younger?

@JaneJeffer

What do you mean then *@JediGnot*?

The first three dictionary definitions of "unprofessional" that I found when I googled were -

"below or contrary to the standards expected in a particular profession."

"not showing the standard of behaviour or skill that is expected of a person in a skilled job: "

"not exhibiting a courteous, conscientious, or generally businesslike manner in the workplace"

Those definitions give you an idea of what I meant. I suppose one might suggest that everyone is on a scale. 100% unprofessional is someone with matted hair, excessive BO, always late, prison tatts, signs of intravenous drug use, dirty and ripped and smelly clothes, never does what he is told, rude etc. 100% professional would involve being polite, efficient, timely, smart, effective, clean etc etc.

Obviously people can have tatts and be very professional, or have no tatts and be very unprofessional. But as a general rule the more tatts you have, the more visible they are, the more faded they are, the more they involve naked women or are just badly drawn or incorrectly spelt, the less professional you look in my eyes. Sorry.

I also think they show a lack of judgement. And - given their ubiquity in young people nowadays - they look to me like you're a sheep who follows trends instead of makign your own decisions.

I think that you might be being deliberately obtuse on the issue of tattoos not looking professional, Jane 🤣

I’m not getting sucked into the wider disagreement between other posters but I do actually have concerns about both my dds’ tattoos, as I do think that they could possibly limit future employment options.

Perhaps over time they will come to be regarded differently 🤷‍♀️

I personally don’t care about tattoos but We don’t exist in a vacuum and think that they could be a barrier later in life. Eg one dd would like to be a nurse but a relative told me they are not allowed visible tattoos. That might be out of date information, though.

@InvisibleDragon

JediKnot you said that you used to stress in a way that was "less mainstream" than his you dress now - what were your reasons for dressing like this when you were younger?

My two less mainstream looks were 16/17 when I dressed very very scruffily (including jeans that were ripped to literal shreds), and early 20s (mid 90s) when I often went out with an androgynous / glam / new romantic look.

I think in both respects it was a combination of youthful rebellion against parents and a boring mainstream society, and buying into a look that fitted with the music I was listening to at the time, and the gigs I went to at the time. So yeah, it was about fuck you to older people and trying to fit into scenes I was interested in and identified with.

Wow you love that old dictionary @JediGnot

SoStrange it depends on the profession and nowadays most younger people have tattoos so to them they are seen as normal.

@stalhoub29, sorry, I just read your post.

Can you elaborate a bit on the liberal feminism being a cancer to feminism?

And could you recommend any specific literature that might be accessible to teens who don’t like to read much!!

Things can be both normal and unprofessional, they are not mutually exclusive! I completely understand that the world is changing (it might of course change back).

I did consider getting one or two in my early 20s - so glad I didn't, not least because it is more an act of rebellion now to leave your skin tattoo-free.

Tattoos make me shudder, all those needles and ink being injected gah

Norms regarding tatts and perceived professionalism are changing, precisely because so many people do have tatts these days. There are going to be thousands more hiring managers who have them in the next 10 years or so.

I'm not sure that dressing provocatively does get more attention from pervs, actually. All of my nastiest, proper fight-or-flight incidents have happened when I've been wearing heavy coats and combat trousers you could piss yourself in without anyone noticing. I did go through a phase of going to industrial clubs in really bonkers outfits and I did wear a big coat or a jumper over them on my way to clubs, but it was more for warmth and practicality reasons. Inside the club, I was rarely the most outrageous one there and didn't get any more attention than anyone else.

sostrange I know a nurse who has sleeve tattoos - no issue in our hospital