The Telegraph - Stonewall advises organisations to use 'parent who has given birth' to help boost ranking

[NonnyMouse1337]

Well done to everyone who helped with the FOIs. Fantastic work, and an impressive article from the Telegraph. It's well worth reading it all. When it's all laid out like that, it's really eye opening.

archive.vn/Rb8AT

Undemocratic, corrupt overreach. What a scandal. If you've ever wondered how an extremely niche ideology like the gender identity stuff spread like wildfire among public and private institutions, this is how it's done.

What makes me laugh is I think the Tories have been desperate to get rid of FOIs but this cluster fuck shows exactly why it's needed. 😁

Gender fluid employees should be given “multiple passcards with different forms of gender expression” so they can be a different gender each day, Stonewall states

So one day they could be a woman and use the women's toilets, the next day the men's, the next day the women's showers or changing room, the next day the men's, the next day get a women's award, and then the next day a man's, one day they can search a woman, the next day they can search a man.

It's absolutely mind blowing when you think about it.

Whilst on the one hand they are busy removing anything that attaches the word woman to her biology, in order that anyone can be one, on the other hand, they are vehemently reinforcing the words man and woman to fit a concept of their own making.

No such thing as a woman, except on International women's day, when you need to profile transwomen on it.

The calm and measured tone of the article is in stark contrast to the violent turbulence of fear and pain that these policies are causing.

@gogglefeet

They are disseminating an ideology by stealth there is something really rather sinister about it. It is very odd to find myself nodding along to something written in the telegraph.

Newspapers often report on what other newspapers are doing. I do wonder if how The Guardian will cover this Telegraph investigation.

My mate in Wales has just messaged me with the news that in April, following Stonewall's advice, the Welsh Assembly Government changed their maternity policy wording from 'mothers' to 'parent who has given birth' and 'breast-feeding' to 'chest-feeding'.

Mark Drakeford, the first minister, is popular because of his steady management on the Covid front, but he's totally in thrall to Stonewall and the trans lobby. Stonewall have been an unacknowledged branch of the Welsh government for a long time.

Scotland has its McStasi fronted by Nicola Sturgeon. Wales has the ApStasi fronted by Mark Drakeford, a kind, mild-mannered, grey-haired and slightly rumpled older statesman. You'd never guess he was at the forefront of a movement to destroy women's sex-based rights.

Pleased to see that the Telegraph, Times, DM and Spectator are keeping shining a light on this. Even the BBC had it on the Radio 4 news this morning.

I wonder when the Guardian will acknowledge that it's happening? Crickets.

@merrymouse

I think because it's something that can appeal to young people/or has broad appeal. It can be made glamorous and 'sexy' and therefore provides a lot of distraction from the less savoury capitalist behaviour of many corporations

If you look at the Oxford Uni submission to Stonewall, a lot of it is about generalised acceptance of difference. I think that is very positive in many ways, but they have replaced analysis of inequality with a general feel good message about inclusivity.

They deliberately silence difficult discussions about safe guarding, and offer cheap solutions like posters and signs. Stonewall membership may seem expensive, but submissions for industry awards are also sometimes laborious and time consuming. The pay off is the advertising and publicity opportunities.

Yes. To be clear there is a difference in motivation as to why Uni's or public sector orgs chase Stonewall approval compared to why MegaCorps originally got involved in making Pride Month hugely corporate. Although I would say appealing to or the manipulation of younger generations is a common thread.

I also don't think we can discount the dynamic shift in higher ed of students becoming customers through the loss of free education.

Thank you to all of you involved in getting the info out there. This is a strong article which should be shown to any organisation parroting the rubbish. Good to see Maya and Nicola in there, but a shame that safeguarding didn’t get more prominence.

Just re-reading the article - it gets better every time. I particularly like the crosshead "Mugs and trans flags," although "Different gender each day" is also a winner! Shame they didn't ask Stonewall to clarify exactly how many genders there are now - I seem to recall there are over 100.

I also like the way it plainly states this is a concern that legal professionals are raising. I think this emphasises the gravity of Stonewall misrepresenting the law. Usually it's framed as a 'feminist' issue, which sadly the general public are more likely to dismiss.
They repeatedly mention lawyers, campaigners and barristers - the word feminist doesn't crop up once!

@mollythemeerkat

It is a good article. *@OvaHere - I was about to repeat @Kit19*`s question and just read your reply. I`ve long thought that the quest for the youth vote explains the capitulation of the left/liberal political parties, but if you "follow the money", is it really Generation Z who have the purchase power which would explain the doglike following of SW by the corporations? The why and wherefore of where Stonewall gets its power is really important I think.

I think there must be a few different strands to this that have created the perfect storm, so to speak. Mega capitalism utilising identity politics as cover is just one aspect.

Someone mentioned up thread that SW operate like a giant MLM and I think there's some truth to that. It strikes me that initially many orgs were probably grateful to have somewhere they could outsource difficult thinking and policy making to. It starts off fairly cheap, the company gets some ready made policies to implement and everyone's a winner. Further down the line of course it's a different story and sunk cost fallacy kicks in.

The problem is of course that it's then difficult to get out of. Because they've outsourced most/all of their Equality stuff. I bet very few of these orgs have in house expertise. Why would they? They haven't needed it because Stonewall, who they trusted to be right about everything, took care of it.

Stonewall have been able to gain such a strangle hold on everything as much through complacency/laziness or lack of thinking by organisations as they have by anything with more nefarious intentions.

The war on the language around breastfeeding gives me the rage because men have breast tissue. Breast is not a gendered term anyway. Dysphoric trans men and presumably non binary people who HAVE GIVEN BIRTH are triggered by the term breastfeeding but not by actually carrying and birthing a baby and feeding them?! It makes absolutely no sense. If men physically could breastfeed then they would probably still call it breastfeeding as it would be their breast tissue that the milk is coming from, not their chests.

None of those organisations paused to consider whether the changes in language would affect their female employees?

Nor would make it difficult for employees to use an intranet for policies by using conventional search terms such as "maternity leave"?

At no point did anyone in those organisations say, "That's grand for the people about whom Stonewall cares. What about the women?"

@bitheby

The war on the language around breastfeeding gives me the rage because men have breast tissue. Breast is not a gendered term anyway. Dysphoric trans men and presumably non binary people who HAVE GIVEN BIRTH are triggered by the term breastfeeding but not by actually carrying and birthing a baby and feeding them?! It makes absolutely no sense. If men physically could breastfeed then they would probably still call it breastfeeding as it would be their breast tissue that the milk is coming from, not their chests.

Exactly - it feels the same as being asked to breast feed in private incase people are upset.

Because they've outsourced most/all of their Equality stuff. I bet very few of these orgs have in house expertise. Why would they? They haven't needed it because Stonewall, who they trusted to be right about everything, took care of it.

Have they though? I know Stonewall talks about 'Diversity Champions', but they don't have any general diversity expertise. Are organisations outsourcing their policies for other protected characteristics, do they not bother with specific policies, or do they just follow the law?

Needs mentioning too: there's frequent mention of it being a 'gay rights' charity, but all this action has no practical impact other than generalised visibility for LGB. The focus and action is all regarding the TQ.

There has been on here, and increasing focus in discussion by supporters of Stonewall to frame 'gay' as 'gender non conforming' and so all the vaguely same thing as TQ. I'm not standing for that, which is why as a lesbian I use the word homosexual. Increasingly clearly and loudly.

Homosexuality involves recognising people by biological sex, and having exclusive same sex attraction/partners. That's it. That's all. It has nothing to do with gender. There are many significant downsides and some grounds to debate homophobia in much of what Stonewall has tried to enforce in the name of LGBT+

Interesting to see this come out of FOI requests and well done to the women making use of this tool to collect serious evidence of big problems.

I've previously mentioned a public sector comms group on social media who today have been asking questions about dealing with trolls over Pride month. Someone mentioned how using FOIs is a new 'trend to be aware of' from 'anti trans campaigners', and the temptation to tell them to get to feck is still strong.

it feels the same as being asked to breast feed in private incase people are upset.

Do you not feel that this is where women will be pushed back to? It's a running action to defend women's right to do this - if the language is ceded, the right to do this outside your home outside of dedicated facilities will slowly (?) but surely be restricted.

I loathe having to harden my boundaries so much but giving way on language is the gateway.

Have they though? I know Stonewall talks about 'Diversity Champions', but they don't have any general diversity expertise.

And this is why they are so dangerous. Diversity is misleading, they only care about diversity within the LGBTQQIAP+++ movement. Stonewall don't care about equal pay for women, or all white boards, or disability discrimination.

There has been on here, and increasing focus in discussion by supporters of Stonewall to frame 'gay' as 'gender non conforming' and so all the vaguely same thing as TQ. I'm not standing for that, which is why as a lesbian I use the word homosexual. Increasingly clearly and loudly.

The goal seems to be right to validation for anyone who feels in need of external validation.

Meanwhile none of the world's religions claim that it's sinful to be a-sexual (in fact many positively encourage it), I don't think its' ever been illegal in any country, and there is certainly nowhere in the world where there is any risk of facing the death penalty for being a-sexual. It's therefore difficult to understand why it's helpful to lump a-sexuality and homosexuality together.

As for 'demi-romantic', where do you start?

Men can get breast cancer too. Chest cancer would suggest lung cancer. A 'chest infection' refers to the respiratory system - I have never heard it used to refer to mastitis. But I am sure it would be helpful if we started muddling these terms

Pregnancy and maternity is also a protected characteristic.

@merrymouse

Because they've outsourced most/all of their Equality stuff. I bet very few of these orgs have in house expertise. Why would they? They haven't needed it because Stonewall, who they trusted to be right about everything, took care of it.

Have they though? I know Stonewall talks about 'Diversity Champions', but they don't have any general diversity expertise. Are organisations outsourcing their policies for other protected characteristics, do they not bother with specific policies, or do they just follow the law?

I think a lot have a minimum on other protected characteristics although many now might be outsourcing racial equality training and policy in a similar way. It seems clear that gender and to a lesser extent sexual orientation has taken up the bulk of time and resources in recent years.

For a time the phrase Equality and Diversity has become synonymous with Stonewall's aims and not a lot else and it's possible SW's policy suggestions have reached into other PC, we know they've overreached with 'sex' they could have done with others for all we know.

@merrymouse

Because they've outsourced most/all of their Equality stuff. I bet very few of these orgs have in house expertise. Why would they? They haven't needed it because Stonewall, who they trusted to be right about everything, took care of it.

Have they though? I know Stonewall talks about 'Diversity Champions', but they don't have any general diversity expertise. Are organisations outsourcing their policies for other protected characteristics, do they not bother with specific policies, or do they just follow the law?

Stonewall also don't have any education experience / knowledge. They have positioned themselves as pastoral care / school systems / curriculum and safeguarding experts for schools. Everything we see in organisations is replicated in schools with catastrophic impacts on children. The removal of single sex toilets and changing rooms for girls, the illegal removal of parental rights / responsibilities by urging schools to transition children in secret, the safeguarding busting mixed age pupil LGBT groups and the promotion of immediate affirmation / puberty blockers and surgery thus gluing children below the age of consent into an ideology they cannot possibly fully comprehend is causing actual harm to countless children. Not to mention the gaslighting of children into obedience and silence when faced with potential safeguarding issues.

I really hope that journalists are investigating what is happening in schools as this is the scandal (amongst many) that will blow the lid off.

@Tibtom

Men can get breast cancer too. Chest cancer would suggest lung cancer. A 'chest infection' refers to the respiratory system - I have never heard it used to refer to mastitis. But I am sure it would be helpful if we started muddling these terms

Pregnancy and maternity is also a protected characteristic.

Indeed. As far as I understand it, chest is the internal cavity. Breast is the external tissue, male or female. Hence Tarzan beating his breast. Breasts (the plural) is referencing female anatomy but breast (singular) is not. So I guess breastfeeding would already be gender neutral? Whereas feeding from your breasts would not?

Do you not feel that this is where women will be pushed back to? It's a running action to defend women's right to do this - if the language is ceded, the right to do this outside your home outside of dedicated facilities will slowly (?) but surely be restricted.

Absolutely. This is a very good example of why women need language to talk about sex. Most women aren't breastfeeding for most of their lives, but the impact of having had to negotiate the world while breastfeeding can last long after breastfeeding has finished. It shouldn't be taboo to state that this affects women, not men.

For a time the phrase Equality and Diversity has become synonymous with Stonewall's aims and not a lot else and it's possible SW's policy suggestions have reached into other PC, we know they've overreached with 'sex' they could have done with others for all we know.

I work with a number of public bodies. I'm deaf. Every single time I have a meeting with someone I have to suggest a video when they want a phone call. And then I have to send them a guide on what to do so that I can speech/lip read them (most of them use Zoom rather than Google Meet or MS Teams that can give captions by default but I'd still need to see them because captions can go badly off piste).

I mention this because it tells you that they're not at all used to making accommodations and they have no internal policies to consult. These are vast organisations - and they have no idea what to do when somebody has one of the commonest disabilities.

How can a 'workplace equality index' only address one type of equality, and blatantly fail to take account of how changes benefitting one group might impact negatively on other disadvantaged groups?

In my own experience as autistic, and from volunteering with recent migrants, I know of many situations where people have failed to access services they've needed because language and signposting has been unclear, so things like changing breastfeeding to nursing are important. These organisations shouldn't just be patting themselves on the back for moving up the equality leaderboard for one group, they should be doing careful research into how any changes will impact other employees or service users.

Equality should be about careful balancing, not about which disadvantaged group shouts the loudest. It seems completely wrong to outsource this to any single-issue organisation, whether it's Stonewall, Age UK, Black Lives Matter, Disability Rights UK. Of course we should listen and consult with groups like these, but you don't tolerate inequality for some in order to be 'diversity champions' for others.

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Gothic breast plate.