Just completing some Equality Act 'training' and apparently I got this question wrong...

[ChatterChattee]

Question: Statistically, men have an advantage over women in education and the workplace.

I chose 'True.'

Apparently, I was wrong. The correct answer is:

'False: Men are paid more than women in the workplace. However, girls and women now outperform men at school and university."

There are soooo many things wrong with that statement! Conflating 'an advantage,' 'being paid,' and 'outperforming,' for one thing.

There's no reason motherhood should have a penalty when fatherhood doesn't, SmokedDuck.

Let's not pretend biology means we need to be paid less for the same job.

@GCAcademic

You can only answer “true” if both are true- an advantage in education AND workplace.

But since one is false, education, you have to answer false.

Performing better in exams is not an "advantage". It's not like exam results are simply handed out to you. Working harder at school is not an advantage, and this is (at best) a very odd way of framing things.

Indeed but being less willing to change jobs and less willing to negotiate pay or less willing do jobs that have a lower salary. Isn't an advantage for men either it's good business sense. As a childless woman who didn't take any career break and spent as much time in the workplace as men I fail to see how I have been discriminated against for my sex (not gender).

There's no reason motherhood should have a penalty when fatherhood doesn't, SmokedDuck.

Let's not pretend biology means we need to be paid less for the same job.

Exactly.
It also shouldn't have an impact on career progression..... but it does unfortunately.

Indeed but being less willing to change jobs and less willing to negotiate pay or less willing do jobs that have a lower salary. Isn't an advantage for men either it's good business sense. As a childless woman who didn't take any career break and spent as much time in the workplace as men I fail to see how I have been discriminated against for my sex (not gender).

You may feel that as an individual you haven't been discriminated against or have been disadvantaged in your career due to your sex but women as a group most definitely have.

Also, some discrimination is so ingrained into work practices that it's hard to see.... same goes for people's unconscious biases too.

You also need to take into account how girls and boys learn to behave and which characteristics are praised or otherwise and then look at the characteristics which are often needed to be successful in the workplace. Not to mention how the same qualities are described differently for men and women.... men are assertive, women are bossy. Men are ambitious, women are ball breaking career women.

Why do we use the phrase Career women to describe a women who focuses on their career but we never hear the phrase 'career men'?

I belive it has been demonstrated that the idea that women dont ask for more money is a myth. Women do ask for more money, they just dont get it

"Both McKinsey’s research and the Do Women Ask? study found that while men and women ask for pay raises at broadly similar rates, women are more likely to be refused or suffer blowback for daring to broach the topic"

www.thecut.com/2019/03/women-do-ask-money-work-salary-raise.html

Stonewall are making millions from training. This is now a money making machine

I belive it has been demonstrated that the idea that women dont ask for more money is a myth. Women do ask for more money, they just dont get it

I had to cover a full time teaching post in my school. Initially they paid me as support staff because it was only meant to be short term.
When it was clear it was long term. I was asked to continue and asked to be paid the teaching band I am qualified for. They said they couldn't afford it so I said no thanks.

My male colleague was then asked to cover only half the time with a qualified teacher. He got paid his band. I couldn't contest it because they could argue that he'd only been offered that pay for half time and not full time. They'd never offered me part time though.

I learned from that never to give anything for free. And that sexism is real.

I teach Sociology and just last week taught my students that the "fact" that girls outperform boys is a gross oversimplification and the truth is much more nuanced than that.

There was a study in the last year or two that showed there are lots of girls that really underperform, but this is masked by one subset of girls that massively over perform, making it look like Girls do better, but the initial statistics are misleading.

It's interesting stuff!

And that sexism is real.

I'm reminded of this at least once a week when someone assumes my older, male colleague is more senior than me. It gives me the rage.

@Imumme, I would really enjoy reading that study if you could provide a link or name .

That sounds so interesting! It's what I have always suspected from looking around me, but not what I have seen generally stated.

I agree that the question is poorly worded.

I honestly don't know if either sex has an objective advantage in education today in Britain.

The fact that girls do better at school and in exams than boys is no doubt due to the various reasons already mentioned upthread. But I also think the higher percentage of girls in higher ed can be explained in part by the fact that for the last generation or so more girls from white working class backgrounds know that they need to aim higher to earn decent money as low-skilled jobs traditionally done by women tend to be much less well paid than those traditionally done by men.

Also perhaps girls just generally aim higher in terms of initial studies and career choices now because they want more for themselves than just to be wives and mothers. That they have been encouraged by their mothers, (mostly female?) teachers and perhaps policy is not them having an advantage. Saying that it is brings to mind that quotation "When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression".

Boys from the same backgrounds have had less incentive to study beyond age 16 when they see their fathers, uncles, older cousins doing well for themselves in the manual trades for example. This was certainly the case where and when I grew up.

A changing economy, increasingly tech-based world of work and the need to upskill could be said to put this category at a disadvantage. Someone upthread mentioned a lack of bursaries for white boys from disadvantaged backgrounds. This may or may not be the case but doesn't justify saying that boys as a group are at a disadvantage in education.

And men most definitely do have an unfair advantage in the workplace when it comes to earning potential. The pay gap is certainly far more due to a woman's choice (often familial and societal expectations) to at least temporarily take the focus away from her career, whether it's time spent as a sahm, cutting back hours or not going for promotion.

Until men also massively make those same choices to even out the balance, the inequality will remain.

@ScreamingBeans

There's no reason motherhood should have a penalty when fatherhood doesn't, SmokedDuck.

Let's not pretend biology means we need to be paid less for the same job.

That's not a particularly significant element of the pay gap, which is not calculated on a per-hour basis. It's based on overall earnings.

Even in industries where men and women are paid identically, there is typically a sex gap in pay over a career, but it starts after women have children. It's to a very significant degree based on things like women taking more time off, working reduced hours, choosing positions with less travel or more flexible hours, etc. My husband's workplace is a good example, it's mostly scientific work, but it's civil service and female dominated, which is quite common in the civil service. Law positions in the civil service are similar. They pay less than private sector but the hours and accommodations for family life are better. But they are still considered to be in the same employment category for wage comparisons.

Even if you think women are being forced by expectations or socialisation or jerk men to make these choices, they come down to reproductive role impacting the types of positions and hours people work, which is not someone deciding to pay fathers more than mothers in the same job. My husband makes the same amount as the other people in his section even though he's not a mum.

And men most definitely do have an unfair advantage in the workplace when it comes to earning potential. The pay gap is certainly far more due to a woman's choice (often familial and societal expectations) to at least temporarily take the focus away from her career, whether it's time spent as a sahm, cutting back hours or not going for promotion.

Until men also massively make those same choices to even out the balance, the inequality will remain.

Here is the things though - there is an assumption embedded in this that what will create real equality is having same outcomes for men and women in this area. So, equality is sameness.

That's a really debatable point.

There also tends to be an assumption that in a truly far society, men and women will naturally make the same choices around things like childcare and reproductive role at the same rate. So these gaps will close.

We really have no idea if that is true, however. It tends to ignore some of the more physical elements or gestation, birth, and early years care, or assumes those have a tiny impact, to start. But it's also a bare assumption that women, if they were really free, would in the aggregate have the same preferences as men around role in childcare.

@SmokedDuck

And men most definitely do have an unfair advantage in the workplace when it comes to earning potential. The pay gap is certainly far more due to a woman's choice (often familial and societal expectations) to at least temporarily take the focus away from her career, whether it's time spent as a sahm, cutting back hours or not going for promotion.

Until men also massively make those same choices to even out the balance, the inequality will remain.

Here is the things though - there is an assumption embedded in this that what will create real equality is having same outcomes for men and women in this area. So, equality is sameness.

That's a really debatable point.

There also tends to be an assumption that in a truly far society, men and women will naturally make the same choices around things like childcare and reproductive role at the same rate. So these gaps will close.

We really have no idea if that is true, however. It tends to ignore some of the more physical elements or gestation, birth, and early years care, or assumes those have a tiny impact, to start. But it's also a bare assumption that women, if they were really free, would in the aggregate have the same preferences as men around role in childcare.

An interesting article around this: hbr.org/2020/03/whats-really-holding-women-back

jellfrizz

Yes, there's a fair bit written around this, and I think it's worth knowing whatever you think people would choose to do if they had no socially imposed limits. Because understanding the origins of the gap suggest a really different set of approaches to making changes.

I'm not sure if, all things being equal, we'd see women and men overall choose the same career trajectories. I just don't see any real evidence that would happen. But really, we don't know.

However, I do think that whether or not that might be the case, we can't get away from the most basic, physical elements of the different roles in mothering and fathering. You sometimes have people saying that pregnancy and the first part of infanthood are not long and wont make that much of a career gap, so can be easily accommodated. I think that is really a bit of a fudge though. It is true for some people, but it is not true for others.

Mothers who have a difficult recovery. Mothers who have difficult pregnancies. Mothers whose work is in an area where being pregnant is not compatible with their usual work. Mothers who find trying to breastfeed and wok difficult or just really unenjoyable. Even mothers who have more than two children - I see a huge difference in the career choices of women with three or more kids, in part dictated by just the sheer time in involved in pregnancy and recovery and infant care.

These are not things that affect men the same way, because they are very much rooted in gestation and breastfeeding and the newborn-mother dynamic. As long as they are a factor they will affect outcomes in terms of things like career progression and choices.

lol what are they getting at. That reminds me of that Best Buy question where they don't greet customers but they welcome them instead.

Cut the crap.

@PlanDeRaccordement

Incidentally, how do you think girls perform better in exams, if not due to hard work?

Better teaching. Same reason why white people do better than black people. It’s not due to white people “working harder”.

Coming out with better results should advantage women, but it doesn't, as we see from the poorer pay we receive for the same roles.

There is no statistically significant pay gap between childless women and men in same roles. The pay gap is a motherhood penalty, not a woman penalty.

How do you figure girls get better teaching than boys 🤔. In majority of kids in uk girls are in same classes and with same teachers as boys. You are wrong to conflate sex differences with racial differences in this case. Yes, black people, as you call it, do have worse teaching in general due to higher % of ethnic minorities in deprived areas.

Didn't someone else have the same question (and the same problem answering it)? Lots of companies buy readymade training these days. If I'm right and this question is part of a course sold to lots of companies, then it's not just something affecting the OP. The question is really imprecise and is certainly not something that fits into a true/false dichotomy.

Highfield ?

You can argue about the wording but the statement is fundamentally true.

Both issues need looking at: why women are still underpaid in the workplace but also why boys are now performing far worse educationally. Both are problematic.

The idea of having quizzes on complex social issues with ‘right’ answers is more indoctrination than education.

Are boys performing ’worse’ or is it that girls are performing relatively better (now that they’re not being told as much that they don’t have the right brains for academics)?

Interesting article @jellyfrizz, thank you.

@SmokedDuck, I get what you're saying about biology dictating choices, and it's possible or even probable that, given the opportunity to be totally free of whoever's expectations, many women may still make the same career choices and put their family before their career.

But isn't it shocking that society just seems to accept that women will take the financial hit when children come along, then live out their retirement on so much less than their husbands, having contributed less over their working lives, especially when more and more marriages end in divorce?

This isn't just something that affects our mothers' generation. We may have only taken a few years out, dropped to 4 days or just stayed in middle management but it all adds up. I hate it every time I read on the relationships or divorce and separation boards women having to work out if they can get by financially if they leave their children's father. The same thing comes up time and time again: most women earn less once they become mothers. And this often leaves them dependent to some extent on men. I also read of husbands hiding their hard- earned savings so they don't have to share it with the future ex. It's fucked up.

It seems to be true that women can't have it all, but they are certainly expected to do it all if they want to have a family and a career and be able to take care of themselves.

A huge societal shift is necessary. As jellifrizz's article suggests it's not just around typical gender roles but also about the accelerating hamster wheel of corporate life, not forgetting our uber-capitalist societies which have made two full-time salaries necessary

I am hearing more and more about falling birthrates and am not surprised that women are choosing to have fewer children, or none at all. Governments are worried. Perhaps this will be the catalyst to real change in the way maternity and motherhood/parenthood are considered. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. In my more gloomy moments I ponder which dystopian future we're headed for if things don't change: one inspired by Huxley, where women are no longer slaves to their biology and babies are hatched and reared in labs, or something closer to Attwood's vision of forced maternity.

Falling birthrates are linked to improved education for girls. I can only see this a good thing. The global population needs to peak and fall.