Just completing some Equality Act 'training' and apparently I got this question wrong...

[ChatterChattee]

Question: Statistically, men have an advantage over women in education and the workplace.

I chose 'True.'

Apparently, I was wrong. The correct answer is:

'False: Men are paid more than women in the workplace. However, girls and women now outperform men at school and university."

There are soooo many things wrong with that statement! Conflating 'an advantage,' 'being paid,' and 'outperforming,' for one thing.

@ChatterChattee

Oh it gets worse.

It's now telling me that gender is protected characteristic...

Yes, I complained about ours saying that and was told that while it technically wasn't correct it's the way most employers (mis)read it!

Advantage means advantage. As in who is coming out ahead.

I wouldn't take advantage to mean that.
I would take it to mean who gets a helping hand or a head start.

Do girls get a helping hand / headstart in education? Is it aimed towards them? Possibly in the days of continuous assessment, but now terminal exams are back? Don't girls tend to get less teacher attention than boys? Aren't they discouraged from taking 'boys' subjects?
Does the 'classroom based' system advantage girls? Perhaps?
At best it is a moot point, certainly not proven that girls actually have an advantage.

Whereas the very fact we need equal pay acts to ensure women doing the same job are paid the same (and tribunals still need to take place), surely shows that women are still disadvantaged in the workplace. Similarly lack of females at director level, women having to take time off more when children are ill etc.

Incidentally, how do you think girls perform better in exams, if not due to hard work?

Better teaching. Same reason why white people do better than black people. It’s not due to white people “working harder”.

Coming out with better results should advantage women, but it doesn't, as we see from the poorer pay we receive for the same roles.

There is no statistically significant pay gap between childless women and men in same roles. The pay gap is a motherhood penalty, not a woman penalty.

The question is poorly worded and also bad for not considering or specifying which metrics they mean.

One could also interpret it as asking if there is a biological or innate advantage related to sex (or gender, presumably they didn't specify which) rather than a societal one.

I wouldn't really know what such a vague question was asking. I need specifics!

@GCAcademic

Not really. The pay gap is due to motherhood, not education.

There is a significant sex pay gap in my workplace, where very few female academics actually have children.

I was talking statistically, on population level as that’s what the question was referring to. Not your personal little fish pond.

What a ridiculous thing to say. So when women make up 55% of university students and are given higher grades, it is due to “hard work” but when men are paid more than women, it is not due to “hard work”?

Are you suggesting that the women who worked hard at school, to the point where they performed better suddenly stop working hard when they move into the workplace?

Or are you suggesting that the men who worked less hard at school suddenly start working so much harder than the hardworking women that they deserve to be paid much better?

Yes, I complained about ours saying that and was told that while it technically wasn't correct it's the way most employers (mis)read it!

Surely this is a training need!

Even more charming than usual, today, I see PlanDeRaccordement. Go well.

Ah, cross post. I see you think that girls don’t work harder than boys, but somehow have better teaching, despite most teaching being done in mixed classes.

@thepuredrop

Yes, I complained about ours saying that and was told that while it technically wasn't correct it's the way most employers (mis)read it!

Surely this is a training need!

Yes, but that was the response from an international law firm, so I can't take it further. My employer is happy with doing it the way other employers apparently do it.

Incidentally, how do you think girls perform better in exams, if not due to hard work?

Better teaching.

Of all the things it could be, I really don't think you can claim 'better teaching'. Most schools are mixed sex. The boys and girls get the same teaching.

You might be able to claim (though I'd want to see it backed up)

• school teaching system favours girls compliant quiet natures and disfavours active boys
• the exam timing system favours girls who mature earlier
• the curriculum favours girls in the choice of texts / topics to be studied
• parents are more supportive of girls' education
• teachers focus attention on girls in the classroom (very much doubt that one)

@Svag

Ah, cross post. I see you think that girls don’t work harder than boys, but somehow have better teaching, despite most teaching being done in mixed classes.

Research shows that girls spend 20 minutes longer on homework each day than boys do, which obviously builds up to significant extra time over a week, month or year.

@Svag

What a ridiculous thing to say. So when women make up 55% of university students and are given higher grades, it is due to “hard work” but when men are paid more than women, it is not due to “hard work”?

Are you suggesting that the women who worked hard at school, to the point where they performed better suddenly stop working hard when they move into the workplace?

Or are you suggesting that the men who worked less hard at school suddenly start working so much harder than the hardworking women that they deserve to be paid much better?

No and no to your questions.

@Svag

Ah, cross post. I see you think that girls don’t work harder than boys, but somehow have better teaching, despite most teaching being done in mixed classes.

It’s well studied that girls get more one on one attention than boys and more praise than boys. So yes, better teaching. Similar to how racism in mixed classes works to exclude and downgrade minority children.

Of course women and girls are disadvantaged in education. Women are more likely to be sexually assaulted on campus, more likely to be abused, cancelled or no-platformed for having different views, more likely to be victims of sexual harassment from supervisors, more likely to lose their female only spaces on campus, and more likely to have fewer total education days due to female-specific health issues.

Why is “advantage” just results in exams?

Better teaching. Same reason why white people do better than black people. It’s not due to white people “working harder”.
Nice bit of massively oversimplification there. If only solving educational outcome gaps was as simple as that.

@NotBadConsidering

Of course women and girls are disadvantaged in education. Women are more likely to be sexually assaulted on campus, more likely to be abused, cancelled or no-platformed for having different views, more likely to be victims of sexual harassment from supervisors, more likely to lose their female only spaces on campus, and more likely to have fewer total education days due to female-specific health issues.

Why is “advantage” just results in exams?

Advantage isn’t results in exams. It’s the opportunity to even go to higher education. University is majority women at 55% of university students. Women are also the beneficiaries of targeted women only bursaries and scholarships that makes university possible for poor women but not poor men.

@LolaSmiles

Better teaching. Same reason why white people do better than black people. It’s not due to white people “working harder”. Nice bit of massively oversimplification there. If only solving educational outcome gaps was as simple as that.

So do you think that “working harder” isn’t an oversimplification?

I'd raise both points OP, I don't think I could let those lie!

At best, it's a poorly worded question where 'advantage' isn't defined and the correct 'false' answer completely detracts from the important point that men are advantaged in the work place. It's like it's trying to catch you out and make the point that men aren't as advantaged as people think. But they are.

Goes without saying that better exam results doesn't equal an advantage. Honest to god. It's something that's obviously difficult to measure and I'm not sure what studies there have been, but from my own experiences I would say the fact that girls are made to feel that STEM is for boys and that they need to dumb themselves down so boys will find them attractive are two definite disadvantages.

Advantage isn’t results in exams. It’s the opportunity to even go to higher education. University is majority women at 55% of university students. Women are also the beneficiaries of targeted women only bursaries and scholarships that makes university possible for poor women but not poor men.

That’s your definition of advantage. Men have the advantage of being able to walk home safely when at university. Men have the advantage of not being asked to give a blowjob in exchange for a favourable grade. Men have the advantage of being able to piss wherever they like on campus and women can’t do fuck all about it. Men have the advantage of dominating University societies. In the USA, men’s college sport has the advantage of billions of dollars more funding per year than women’s sport.

The question said “advantage”. It did not define it as “opportunity to go to even higher education.”

“but when men are paid more than women, it is not due to “hard work”?”

Not necessarily, no

I wouldn't take advantage to mean that. I would take it to mean who gets a helping hand or a head start.

Exactly. The fact that girls perform better in school and university doesn't mean they have an advantage. It means that they perform better. Arguably boys have an advantage, because they have more access to top schools (Eton, Harrow etc), they tend to receive more attention from teachers and they aren't hindered by students of the opposite sex sexually harassing and assaulting them.

The pay gap is a motherhood penalty, not a woman penalty.

Only woman are mothers.

Better teaching?

More likely that girls generally do more homework, take better notes, are more attentive in class, apply themselves and hit maturity levels earlier.

As for men getting paid more than women because of motherhood, the pay gap just widens after motherhood and is not caused by it.

And women are disadvantaged when it comes to Ph.D.

www.sciencemag.org/careers/2018/10/when-you-re-only-woman-challenges-female-phd-students-male-dominated-cohorts

Women are less likely to pursue a Ph.D are drop out at a higher proportion compared to males.