Whose a good enough femminist.

[Gumbomambo]

I work as a part time DV councillor. I’m a SAHM most of the time. I also work with a group of women, locally that support abused women. We are able to give them and their children immediate support. We aren’t part of a charity, we have a few ladies in our group that can give immediate care. I’ve read some of the threads over the last few days and I feel like the. “Clever” feminists just don’t want us to be part of the discussion. We are all working class women and do what we can, we have baby drives, and ask our groups for kids clothes, nappies, ladies clothes, pots and pans, bedding etc . I feel like some of these threads recently have lost the plot! We are just women and we work so hard for the women and children in our community to be part of our community and given a start. I think I’m saying that a lot of the posters here would have our backs but some have just made us feel thick and stupid and not able to join the discussion. The Posie Parker thread really shocked and upset me. We just want some help. Some people seem to do feminism on Twitter we just look after the casualties. Rant over.

Gumbo 💐

Good on you. And you're right, there's no time for point scoring.

I think some of us can be frightened by the term feminism but we actually do do it anyway in everyday life. If you can google a local refuge, we have found our church (none of us are very pious) have massive causes for women and kids. We ask our mums, colleagues, friends, work mates to do little shoe boxes, a pack of knickers, a t shirt, old pjs, Cheap moisturiser from Lidl and a deodorant. An old lipy or holy grail some fake tan! It is so normal to us but a pack of face wipes and a clean pair of knickers is like a taste of a safe normal life. More than that a decent smile and just an acknowledgment can really mean the world. I promise you , you can be a lifeline to these ladies just by being normal and treating them as you would treat anyone else. They just seem to get sidelined and their abusers play on this.This probably sounds a daft thing to say here but where ever you come across the nice kind term “sex worker”, don’t use it. My ladies and their children aren’t sex workers they are sexually exploited, frightened vulnerable human beings. It has become such a bug bear for me, it seems to be being glamorised and the effects are horrific. Thanks for listening.

Thank you for doing! 👏

Gumbo, I agree wholeheartedly about not re-labelling sexual exploitation as “sex work”.

I found some of the sentiments about who can run a refuge on the Posie thread quite troubling. There can certainly be hierarchies within movements, and the women’s liberation movement is no exception. I may be wrong, but it seemed to me on that thread, that there is a tendency among some feminist with expertise in the VAWG sector to see themselves as the only experts, and everyone else should butt out.

It is a little tricky, as I would not want to deny that there are experts, women who have masses and masses of expertise, built up over decades. But others, like yourself, equally have masses and masses to contribute. As the need far outweighs supply of help, surely doing what you are doing makes a vital difference, and discouraging women who want to help from getting involved is not something women, as a class, can afford.

One thing that really stood out in your posts is listening to the women you are helping, and treating them as equals. Several posts in the Posie discussion shun a light on where there is room for improvement in current DV provisions. Too many women have felt ignored and patronised by the so-called experts, and even though I claim no expertise at all, I think it would be really helpful to have a discussion about how abusive dynamics can be replicated even in the very services set up to help women out of abusive relationships. It is too important an issue to shy away from that discussion, even though it may get bloody.

Good ENOUGH feminist? Gumbo, you are feministing brilliantly, never for a moment imagine otherwise. Supporting women, mobilising women, informing women (the fake tan thing never would have occurred to me in terms of useful & welcome, so that's noted with thanks).

When I read your opening post, the Martha and Mary story came inescapably to mind. It's one I have always struggled with, having a strong urge to slap Mary upside the head for flinging expensive unguents around and making a mess because fascinated by what a bloke has to say, while her sister is going spare in the kitchen, etc. But we do need both.

@Gumbomambo

I think some of us can be frightened by the term feminism but we actually do do it anyway in everyday life. If you can google a local refuge, we have found our church (none of us are very pious) have massive causes for women and kids. We ask our mums, colleagues, friends, work mates to do little shoe boxes, a pack of knickers, a t shirt, old pjs, Cheap moisturiser from Lidl and a deodorant. An old lipy or holy grail some fake tan! It is so normal to us but a pack of face wipes and a clean pair of knickers is like a taste of a safe normal life. More than that a decent smile and just an acknowledgment can really mean the world. I promise you , you can be a lifeline to these ladies just by being normal and treating them as you would treat anyone else. They just seem to get sidelined and their abusers play on this.This probably sounds a daft thing to say here but where ever you come across the nice kind term “sex worker”, don’t use it. My ladies and their children aren’t sex workers they are sexually exploited, frightened vulnerable human beings. It has become such a bug bear for me, it seems to be being glamorised and the effects are horrific. Thanks for listening.

Hearing loud and clear

We are all working class women.

Don't understand why only working class because not only working class women are abused and includes financial abuse. sorry don't want to upset you just upsetting because attitudes that only working class women victims of domestic violence means harder for other women to get help.

clean pair of knickers

Sorry to post the other post just upsetting because have experienced less support or feeling like they didn't want to help because middle class accent but definitely not all of them and many really good kind women helping and thank you to remember knickers. I went a week without any in refuge as didn't get chance to take much.

‘If you can talk to any teaching assistant in your local school they will tell you where to start. That’s where we started. A prostitute who had her children in danger.’

Random people asking classroom assistants to tell them which mothers and children in the school are vulnerable is a safeguarding nightmare and the assistant could be sacked.

Please report anyone you see doing this to the school and the police. It could well be grooming.

I don’t have any issue with Posie or someone else setting up a refuge. I am sure it can be done. But that doesn’t mean we have to approve of anything that is supposedly ‘help’ just because we personally side with either professionals or non professionals.

@Gumbomambo

I’ve found that in all bits of your life there are women who are desperate and frightened. Just a smile on the school run or asking if they might like a tea in work. You know the women who need help. There are so many more who are so ashamed to ask fo help. Think about your circle of women, from the lady who gives you a pint of milk in the shop, to the harassed mum at school. Next time you hear gossip about a woman struggling just give her a smile and I promise it starts from there. Women who need you are so close and You can help them, it just takes a woman like you, not looking down on her, just a smile. If you have a little group of friends just look around and I promise you can help a woman in trouble.

Do you really think most feminists aren’t aware, and aren’t doing, any of these things?

That’s a very negative view of other women you have there.

The nasty derisive ‘clever women’ really set my teeth on edge. It’s very very common for misogynists to belittle intelligent or educated women (the two are not necessarily the same). I wouldn’t choose to speak that way of other women myself.

It’s not really work. It’s just a bunch of “old fashioned” women looking after our own. When you start the amount of women around you just floats it. No one wants to see a young girl with kids getting hurt and vilified

Please don't be upset or angry for my post. Think what you do so lovely and kind and posting for other people to understand not against you. Just hope people understand why harder sometimes for women not typical idea of domestic violence victim or seen as less important like older and no children hard to get help and one reason why older women get murdered. Don't mean upset you and what you doing so amazing and most important is helping the children but just want people to understand why people maybe not fitting in don't leave. You help your own so people not part of your own not easy to get right help. Not as important if no children but just want people to understand why some women don't leave. sorry again for post because you doing really nice kind thing and not your fault about situation of other women because you can't help everyone not your job and problem is the councils.

Thanks for your hard work supporting women, OP.

I agree @Gumbomambo

I’ve found it very difficult on some threads as some posters are so dismissive and rude frankly.
My daily life is similar to yours in that I’m on the coal face every day. I’m also a survivor of ACE. I’m also a gender studies scholar and am currently doing a big research project that centres the female victims of CSE.
I’ve been accused on several threads by regular posters of being ‘against women’ and ‘not a real feminist’ and also my favourite ‘blaming women’, by people who really should know better.
It saddens me really.

@nosafeguardingadults

I don’t think ops saying only working class women experience violence.
Working class women are generally regarded as the wrong kind of women And can therefore experience different layers of oppression. Intersectionality 101.

I didn't read the Posie thread, but please keep posting, Gumbo. There are people from different walks of life on FWR, with different perspectives. As PP said, hearing you loud and clear.

I'm another one who can't be bothered getting involved in a Posie thread!

You sound amazing Op. And yes I've seen some brilliant stuff done at grass roots level through local churches.

FWR is a melting pot of views and experiences; never be afraid to post your view.

What's good is that we are can discuss all this stuff. Sometimes theory overrides a bit and going back to basics is always valuable.

I have always taught in schools in deprived areas where generations of families struggle to find employment. I remember early on in my career the stark reality of a mother of a pupil sleeping in the school playground bike shelter one night. School helped her find help. And how the cheapest crack cocaine in the city could be bought from outside my y2 classroom.

And how my poor lovely teaching colleague was beaten black and blue by her then husband.

Both were affected by male violence. my colleague had options, money and is now a head, working in the same area. Her pain is and was no less at all. But she had more structures to lean on.

I think I might have mis represented myself when I said “talk to teaching assistants”, I didn’t mean go around sticking your nose in and asking for personal private information. I just meant we heard people talking and knew people struggling with no support and that’s how we started to help. As to the working class women comment, my little group of friends are working class but we wouldn’t exclude anyone who might come from a different background. Abuse happens everywhere.
@MissTrip82 again I may have misrepresented my feelings I don’t have a nasty attitude to women and I’m sorry I’ve set your teeth on edge. I just wanted to express that lots of women are trying to help in their local communities and I felt that we can often be dismissed.
@nosafeguardingadults I read some of your posts on the other thread. You sound like you have been failed over and over again. You deserve so much better.

Teaching assistants often live in the immediate local community. I find they often are aware of the families who need help through community networks and friends.

‘I think I might have mis represented myself when I said “talk to teaching assistants”, I didn’t mean go around sticking your nose in and asking for personal private information. I just meant we heard people talking and knew people struggling with no support and that’s how we started to help.’

Oh, that makes sense! Yes, I misunderstood earlier.

I agree with the knickers....

I ran away and forgot to take pants. thankfully I ran to my mums and could borrow hers. I really was wearing granny pants then.

you are doing a great job. better to get on and do what you can to make a difference than argue about the rights and wrongs of doing something while those who need help suffer.

I do like the river example. we need both sorts of people. people who can wak upstream and deal with the problem and people who are there to pull people out in the mean time.

also, gum is dealing with helping people where she is. yes, other demographics of women suffer too, someone assumed that as I had my "telephone voice" on when I rang for help that it was not me who needed help. but we still need people like gum to get on and do. other people can get on and support where they are.

I posted this on the Posie thread (and elsewhere) but one of the things that happened after it became more normal (though not reliable) to get funding for refuges many women who have been supportive in a local way sort of stepped back. Not because they thought they didn't have the skills, but an assumption that funding would cover everything.

In fact the intial funding wasn't funding at all, but an agreement that women in refuges could claim housing benefit (this is why historically refuge funding always came under housing and it was only years later that the concept of funding for women specifically in response to male violence happened - partly because men didn't want it to be acknowledged that there was such a problem).

But many refuges only survive through local support. And in fact if refues hadn't been left isolated and coming under pressure from funders' priorities, we may not (perhaps) have landed up with the refuges being told single sex services weren't a priority.

If you check with you local refuge, particularly at christmas they will post a list of items they would like donated, or may have an amazon wish list.

But as with appeals for refugees (whether in camps or without settled status) and in fact what happened after Grenfell, donating old clothes etc., my seem like a generous thing to do, but can add to the sense of being dislocated from your own live wearing someone else's hand me downs. Far better to have a jumble / car boot sale and give money. Or sets of underwear or whatever.

Whether as an informal network of friends or an actual support group this seems like such a positive thing to be doing.

Just in case anyone thinks I am dismissing what OP has talked about, I am saying this is such a great example of how it is possible to support women as volunteers and as paid "professionals".

An in an ideal world would be great to do this in cooperative way.

And how my poor lovely teaching colleague was beaten black and blue by her then husband. Both were affected by male violence. my colleague had options, money and is now a head, working in the same area. Her pain is and was no less at all. But she had more structures to lean on.

Thank you so much Gum for what you do so kind and wonderful. Not you but this poster stereotype not deliberate but what I mean when say some people have idea of what victims need help or deserve it more so women like me get risk of murder because maybe middle class sounding accent but no money to leave. People like that post think middle class accent means need less help and have money or job but they don't realise about financial abuse and disability. Sorry again to post and not about Gum who such kind things just really upsetting because idea like WarrierN that some victims with middle class accent have options and means not true and most services realise but not all and sometimes experienced unconscious attitudes. Sorry not explaining properly and hard to explain without upsetting people just wish less stereotype idea of victims not just class or accent but age. Sorry again.