It didn't have to be like this

[JustcameoutGC]

I am so glad to see the position of Stonewall finally being brought out into the light and people at last feeling emboldened to state the obvious. That men can't become women. That there is a clash between trans rights and women's rights and that Stonewall is leading us to places where male sex offenders are locked up with women, and lesbians are coerced into sex with males.

I thought it would feel better. But I feel so sad that we are in this bitter and divided place. I was really sad to hear how the founders of the LGB Alliance had tried for years to get Stonewall to listen before setting off on their own, but got nowhere. That must have been a hugely painful decision, given what SW have achieved for the LGB community to date.

In the wake of the JKR vile twitter storm, SW could have intervened to call for a more measured response. But they didn't, so the rape threats continued.

The #nodebate tactic was really chilling to be on the end of. It was malign and totalitarian. It instilled fear in women who hold perfectly reasonable views.

The behind the scenes lobbying that only became apparent when very advanced plans for self id and women could mount a defence.

This could and should have been done differently, with open engagement and debate and a range of solutions on the table. But it was only ever total capitulation that was a solution for them.

As a result, SW have probably permanently damaged any trust between women and the trans community. Getting to a place that works for everyone will be so much harder now.

I agree with you. Things are so bad now that the people who supported Stonewall in the past are relieved its on its way down. The fact that a major important charity is no longer fit for purpose really shouldn't be a cause for celebration.

I hope that the LGB Alliance can take over where Stonewall left off. I'm sad to see them being attacked, and it makes me wonder how many people can recognise homophobia when its playing out in front of them.

It was very clear that all those working behind the scenes wanted everything nicely wrapped up before the public woke up so it would be too late to stop the bullshit.

SW declaring there is no clash of rights whilst simultaneously lobbying for the removal of the sex based exemptions that protect females.

What I can see now is that people are more likely to openly challenge and question the narrative.
Comments on SM and news articles are increasingly GC.
The general public are now getting to see what a lot of us could see 5 years ago.

This whole debacle has really shown up how deep homophobia and misogny go. It has come as an eye opener to me as I had generally bought in to the narative that we were over those things as a socitey.

SW collapsing and the reasons why is going to come as a schock to a lot of people.

I agree. It's ugly out there and it makes me sad, particularly as a lesbian. The LGBTQ community feels fractured beyond repair.

Any LGBTQ organisations are now in an impossible position. Be inclusive and shit all over women's rights or be exclusive and face the backlash from the TRA lobby.

I totally agree with you. In one way it’s a huge relief that Stonewall are finally being called out and more and more people are realising the assault on women and girls rights but it’s sad to think how great Stonewall used to be and how it’s reputation has been ruined. I think the harm that has been done to LGBs and trans people is shameful. If they’d just accepted debate in the first place instead of TWAW 👉🏻😑👈🏻 We’re not listening to you bigots rubbish, things could have been much better. Nobody really believes TWAW and trying to force us to capitulate and let men trample all over women’s sex based rights was never going to work.

@JustcameoutGC "As a result, SW have probably permanently damaged any trust between women and the trans community. Getting to a place that works for everyone will be so much harder now."

Not just the trans community: in the wake of the JKR tweet I saw most of the younger gay and lesbian people and many other Guardian-y people in my social media friendship group say really appalling things, no thinking behind the comments, just binary hatred. Ditto the arts, especially the performing arts, and the BBC, especially for silencing Jenni Murray. It seems to have become a thing like Trump or Brexit for them (maybe a proxy for both, an alternative outlet for all that anger and hate!). I can't forget the things they said about JKR and the death and rape threats, and about women who want to maintain safe spaces and boundaries, or the ease with which they seem to have forgotten all about their own teenage anxiety and now think medicalising children based on regressive stereotypes - especially the soaring number of teenage girls - is wonderful and progressive. As for the Labour Party, I was a member for years. I'm politically homeless right now, and I have lost so much trust in so many of the institutions and entertainments I used to love and respect.

I'm really hoping that a lot of those who, like Frances Barber last night on Twitter, have felt the same but been scared into silence will come out now, especially in the arts.

Yes, I think Stonewall have alienated and then silenced whole swathes of people who would naturally be their allies.

As they continue to double down on their positions and not concede even an inch, things are going to get a whole lot nastier before they get better, if they can get better.

It's unbelievably sad - when I think of the difference Stonewall made to the lives of friends and family, back in the day. The overwhelming emotion of friends and family who married - who'd fallen in love at a time when it was illegal, who'd then lived through the succeeding years of discrimination, and their unparalleled joy when they were able to marry in the sight of their loved ones.

It's a sad, horrible morality story of how much damage well-intentioned people can do when their original purpose disappears and they divert their energies to the new and shiny rather than pursue the consolidation of gains and the 'boring but effective' work.

Take no pleasure in it at all - Mermaids now...that would be different.

I think what's strange is to see how far activists are incapable of changing tack - they are now trying to convince people that gay rights as a whole are under threat even though gay people are now openly saying they feel more under attack from Stonewall now than they do from government or the church. It was the same with the superstraight campaign.

Just had a look at Frances Barber's twitter. Pleased to see her speaking out, but predictably she is not being listened to properly by those who really need to hear it.

I'm wondering where this will end, when organisations like Stonewall and the Labour party seem so entrenched. It's so so sad.

One of Frances' tweets:

She's not pussyfooting around!

twitter.com/francesbarber13/status/1399830950859653128?s=20

"Stonewall is now a horrible bunch of rabid Trans Activists. They despise women. It’s end is near. It started off as such a cause for good. JK Rowling will be seen as a Cassandra for our times."

I agree it really didn't have to be like this, and the 'no debate' approach poisoned the well from the start. I think Stonewall started to go wrong with the 'Some people are gay - get over it' slogan - not the purpose, which decent people fully agree with, but the tone. I remember at the time a wiser man than me (fully signed up progressive type) was really angry about the campaign and said the tone signalled all kinds of trouble. I didn't know what he meant at the time, but he was right. Stonewall were getting way, way high on their own supply and had started deliberately making enemies, when they should have been making allies. And women and trans people will suffer for their foolishness, for decades.

I feel quite sad and angry about it too. Such a pointless waste, of everyone's time, of funding, and of opportunity! This should have been a joint fight, TRAs, the LGB community, and feminists, all joining together to find a common ground from which to tear down repressive social norms. But no, Stonewall didn't want to find a bloody common ground, they wanted everything on their own terms, and fuck everyone else, even huge swathes of the LGB community that they were supposed to champion.

I feel sad, and angry, and betrayed.

@Thelnebriati

I agree with you. Things are so bad now that the people who supported Stonewall in the past are relieved its on its way down. The fact that a major important charity is no longer fit for purpose really shouldn't be a cause for celebration.

I hope that the LGB Alliance can take over where Stonewall left off. I'm sad to see them being attacked, and it makes me wonder how many people can recognise homophobia when its playing out in front of them.

What I wonder though about the idea of taking over where they left off, is if there isn't a need for a bit of a rethink about how charitable groups in general interact with the public and the government.

The ease with which the wants of a small number of (mostly) privileged white males swept away the needs of women as a group just shows how thin the veneer over misogyny is in our society. It should not be this easy to subvert safeguarding, but it is. Because women and children just aren't real people to a lot of the (mostly) men in charge.

I left the about party and my union over this issue. Have felt silenced in a different version of ‘lockdown’. Sick and tired of it.

Labour not ‘about’.

I am going to be relentlessly optimistic and say that it has just highlighted some issues that probably weren't clearly out in the open. Now that they are increasingly having sunlight shone hard on them, we can discuss, debate, investigate, and hopefully find ways to help everyone.

@ArabellaScott

I am going to be relentlessly optimistic and say that it has just highlighted some issues that probably weren't clearly out in the open. Now that they are increasingly having sunlight shone hard on them, we can discuss, debate, investigate, and hopefully find ways to help everyone.

Good on you and I blooming well hope you are right.

I think separating LGB rights from trans rights was long overdue and they should never have been lumped together at all, so I hope that is one thing that comes out of this. Sexual preference has nothing to do with body dysphoria, they are not the same type of thing at all - and when trans ideology goes as far as saying same-sex attraction is not allowed, it's clear it is harmful to LGB rights.

What amazes me is not just the shockingly destructive path Stonewall have taken, but as IvyTwines says all the people who have swallowed it - all those lefty, arty, supportive people who were so desperate to show they were woke and couldn't be accused of bigotry, they went along with spewing hatred on people like JKR, making their organisations anti-woman and removing women's rights and safety as fast as possible, and freezing out/harassing anyone who questioned it.

It just shows how far perfectly normal people, people who think they are nice, will go to clamber up the slippery pole of righteousness so they don't end up on the receiving end of the judgement and cancellation. It's really worrying.

mrsbunhat indeed

It is such a waste. Also important to note that many transexuals have thrown under the bus by Stonewall et al.

I do actually predict a positive outcome too. Definitely renewed strength and vigour in the LGB and women's movements, and also I really hope the disastrous trans-as-fashion and kids being medicalised situation changes. And perhaps longer-term a wider understanding of what gender actually is and how it works.