It didn't have to be like this

[JustcameoutGC]

I am so glad to see the position of Stonewall finally being brought out into the light and people at last feeling emboldened to state the obvious. That men can't become women. That there is a clash between trans rights and women's rights and that Stonewall is leading us to places where male sex offenders are locked up with women, and lesbians are coerced into sex with males.

I thought it would feel better. But I feel so sad that we are in this bitter and divided place. I was really sad to hear how the founders of the LGB Alliance had tried for years to get Stonewall to listen before setting off on their own, but got nowhere. That must have been a hugely painful decision, given what SW have achieved for the LGB community to date.

In the wake of the JKR vile twitter storm, SW could have intervened to call for a more measured response. But they didn't, so the rape threats continued.

The #nodebate tactic was really chilling to be on the end of. It was malign and totalitarian. It instilled fear in women who hold perfectly reasonable views.

The behind the scenes lobbying that only became apparent when very advanced plans for self id and women could mount a defence.

This could and should have been done differently, with open engagement and debate and a range of solutions on the table. But it was only ever total capitulation that was a solution for them.

As a result, SW have probably permanently damaged any trust between women and the trans community. Getting to a place that works for everyone will be so much harder now.

@dyslek

This whole debacle has really shown up how deep homophobia and misogny go. It has come as an eye opener to me as I had generally bought in to the narative that we were over those things as a socitey.

SW collapsing and the reasons why is going to come as a schock to a lot of people.

I am much the same. This whole thing has come as a shock and I now can't unsee it.

At least it will make workplace preferred pronoun compulsion a little more straightforward to deal with for some.

Just looking at it from a personal point of view: This fiasco has forced me to examine my own assumptions more than any other issue I've ever come across.

It is forcing the left to look at itself, its motivations, its reasoning and its attitude.

I think I'm personally less reactive, less tribalist and less prone to jump to conclusions now.

More inclined to be cautious, ask questions, look for corroborative evidence, try to consider other viewpoints.

It's opened up the suprising and genuinely heart warming sight of women working together cross party, cross allegiances, despite no funds, no power, no networks, no media support.

We've done amazing things.

And while it's highlighted some really sad and concerning aspects of human nature it's also prompted me to get involved in politics more than before, in small prosaic ways, and to read more widely, to listen more, to try and notice my own knee-jerk assumptions and set them aside. And to be less fussed if someone throws insults at me.

All to the good (in this, the best of all possible worlds).

WHY

What amazes me is not just the shockingly destructive path Stonewall have taken, but as IvyTwines says all the people who have swallowed it - all those lefty, arty, supportive people who were so desperate to show they were woke and couldn't be accused of bigotry, they went along with spewing hatred on people like JKR, making their organisations anti-woman and removing women's rights and safety as fast as possible, and freezing out/harassing anyone who questioned it.

It just shows how far perfectly normal people, people who think they are nice, will go to clamber up the slippery pole of righteousness so they don't end up on the receiving end of the judgement and cancellation. It's really worrying.

Something that could also be said about a couple of other scandals, one in the 1970's and one in Rotherham, the tragedy is they never seem to learn from history and as the saying goes those who don't learn the lessons from history are doomed to repeat them.

[quote IvyTwines2]@JustcameoutGC "As a result, SW have probably permanently damaged any trust between women and the trans community. Getting to a place that works for everyone will be so much harder now."

Not just the trans community: in the wake of the JKR tweet I saw most of the younger gay and lesbian people and many other Guardian-y people in my social media friendship group say really appalling things, no thinking behind the comments, just binary hatred. Ditto the arts, especially the performing arts, and the BBC, especially for silencing Jenni Murray. It seems to have become a thing like Trump or Brexit for them (maybe a proxy for both, an alternative outlet for all that anger and hate!). I can't forget the things they said about JKR and the death and rape threats, and about women who want to maintain safe spaces and boundaries, or the ease with which they seem to have forgotten all about their own teenage anxiety and now think medicalising children based on regressive stereotypes - especially the soaring number of teenage girls - is wonderful and progressive. As for the Labour Party, I was a member for years. I'm politically homeless right now, and I have lost so much trust in so many of the institutions and entertainments I used to love and respect.

I'm really hoping that a lot of those who, like Frances Barber last night on Twitter, have felt the same but been scared into silence will come out now, especially in the arts.[/quote]
This ^

So many people showed how willing they were to follow the mob, so many organisations willing to drop their commitment to the law and become a mob. I won't forget any of that and I won't ever forget again that women's and girls rights are never safe and liberal feminism is a crock of s.

@SapphosRock

I agree. It's ugly out there and it makes me sad, particularly as a lesbian. The LGBTQ community feels fractured beyond repair.

Any LGBTQ organisations are now in an impossible position. Be inclusive and shit all over women's rights or be exclusive and face the backlash from the TRA lobby.

I get that it is short term very very messy, but is it a problem if it is fractured beyond repair?

I get that there is a gay community - men to fancy men. I get that there is a lesbian community, and that it has shared interests with the gay community.

The bi community probably includes people who get treated as hetero all the time, and those who get treated as gay, and those who get treated as the worst of both worlds. I can see how this community shares something with the gay and lesbian communities.

I get that the LGB community would have a natural affinity to the trans and queer (where it is not gay or bi) community. But on the other hand they are not obviously natural bedfellows. Is there not a strong argument that the LGB community has done it's bit - got trans people a load of sympathy and attention - now it's time for the trans community to go it's own way and fight it's own corner. Obviously all sorts of straight and LGB men and women will fight for trans rights in support of the trans community when they feel it is a fight worth having and it does not infringe on their own rights, but at this point in history I simply do not see that they are natural bedfellows.

I think that what this whole saga and the grooming gangs has brought home to me is the conditionality of women’s rights. We are allowed rights provided they don’t impinge on other groups, particularly on groups of men / male sexed people. As soon as these groups want something women are pushed aside and expected to be nice or be blamed.

I totally agree!
It really goes against my nature to be “anti trans women” but sadly, if you support women’s rights, that’s the position you’re forced into because in order to defend women’s rights, you have to acknowledge the biological difference in males and females and their societal impacts.
I really hope the next few years will bring clear boundaries for women’s rights, which cannot be threatened, shouted over etc. by people trying to change the very language we need to use to be able to protect women.
Once these boundaries are clear and impenetrable, we can move on to helping trans women find their own sense of safety and equality. Third spaces, employment protections, etc
By insisting women shut up and move over and give up their rights, it’s become a war that didn’t need to happen.
Mutual respect was all we wanted all along.

OK, I should have checked my email sooner, -my bad- I got an email from Mumsnet stating which forbidden phrase I used. (It'd be nice if there was a list of them somewhere instead of having to find out by stepping on the wrong eggshells.)
Anyway, as I wrote before, I think the genderist movement, with the influence of Stonewall, misdirected a lot of social energy that could have achieved much more positive results, i.e. deconstructing gender expectations, and working to create an environment where a) gender non-conforming kids would not be offered transition as the first and/or only option for to dealing with it - I feel very strongly about this because I would have been so very susceptible to this - and b) an environment where kids who are gender conforming because of social constraints would feel freer to express themselves as they please.

So many of who are (ironically) on opposite sides of the (no) debate want to get rid of any kind of discrimination against anyone who doesn't behave/dress in a way that isn't masculine/feminine enough, or too masculine/feminine. If there wasn't this divide caused by the attempt to replace sex with gender, we could have really made a dent in it by now, I think. Instead of that, we've seen it enabling gleeful misogyny on steroids, and censorship by hook and by crook while elevating gender to new heights.
I also want to believe that many of the activists who have gotten behind this are actually genuinely well-intentioned, and that, assuming that Stonewall does fall by the wayside, I hope they keep working for more positive goals which don't involve sidelining the interests of women and children in favor of male interests.

But, as JK Rowling wrote that Hermione said that Dumbledore said, it's much harder to forgive someone for being right than it is to forgive them for being wrong.

I think the T was largely included over time because many transwomen were gay, which is to say, fancied other men. So in a way, their inclusion was predicated on the fact that they were biological men.

What was maybe an error was to identify them out as having related concerns beyond that? Although, I don't think that would even have really been at issue if people hadn't lost sight of the fact that biology is not changeable.

It's all such a waste of energy and time. Of course we had to fight it, but it just gets more and more toxic. I see Dawn Butler retweeting Good Law Project today. Nobody seems to learn anything or listen.

Something that could also be said about a couple of other scandals, one in the 1970's and one in Rotherham, the tragedy is they never seem to learn from history and as the saying goes those who don't learn the lessons from history are doomed to repeat them.

Yes. This is where we really need to learn. We could use this information to improve safeguarding. We can see how humans can be mistaken, manipulated, how they can be bamboozled, lobbied, bullied and terrorised.

We have a chance to put this to use.

@AllTheUsernamesAreAlreadyTaken

I totally agree! It really goes against my nature to be “anti trans women” but sadly, if you support women’s rights, that’s the position you’re forced into because in order to defend women’s rights, you have to acknowledge the biological difference in males and females and their societal impacts. I really hope the next few years will bring clear boundaries for women’s rights, which cannot be threatened, shouted over etc. by people trying to change the very language we need to use to be able to protect women. Once these boundaries are clear and impenetrable, we can move on to helping trans women find their own sense of safety and equality. Third spaces, employment protections, etc By insisting women shut up and move over and give up their rights, it’s become a war that didn’t need to happen. Mutual respect was all we wanted all along.

So many good posts but this is especially to the point. It's all so very sad.

Thank you for this thread.

I'm very sad about it too, and I'm not LGB or T. Stonewall worked very hard and improved society for the better. And then we got Ruth Hunt. And here we are.

@ArabellaScott

Just looking at it from a personal point of view: This fiasco has forced me to examine my own assumptions more than any other issue I've ever come across.

It is forcing the left to look at itself, its motivations, its reasoning and its attitude.

I think I'm personally less reactive, less tribalist and less prone to jump to conclusions now.

More inclined to be cautious, ask questions, look for corroborative evidence, try to consider other viewpoints.

It's opened up the suprising and genuinely heart warming sight of women working together cross party, cross allegiances, despite no funds, no power, no networks, no media support.

We've done amazing things.

And while it's highlighted some really sad and concerning aspects of human nature it's also prompted me to get involved in politics more than before, in small prosaic ways, and to read more widely, to listen more, to try and notice my own knee-jerk assumptions and set them aside. And to be less fussed if someone throws insults at me.

All to the good (in this, the best of all possible worlds).

Yes, me too. It's been quite a journey.

The SW of today bears no resemblance to the SW of a few years ago. It’s now a glitter-shat gravy train - and fast coming off the rails. I’m not sad - SW deserve everything they get. They lied about the law, they redefined Homosexuality, and they treated women and any dissenters abominably, quite apart from their disgusting comparisons to the Holocaust.

Frankly, I don’t think they give a shit about trans people. They just see them as a new way to make money. Same with people with DSDs. Just another tool to bring in the cash and maintain their status.

What’s sad to me is the unnecessary friction caused between women and people with GD. What’s not sad is the demise of a lying, corrupt organisation that stopped representing me a long time ago.

I have written to Kier Starmer today. Asking him to start building bridges and creating a space for respectful debate.

I am pretty sure nothing will happen, but I just can't think of anyone else who would be in a position to turn this round. The leadership on this has to come from the left, but I am not holding my breath.

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

I think that what this whole saga and the grooming gangs has brought home to me is the conditionality of women’s rights. We are allowed rights provided they don’t impinge on other groups, particularly on groups of men / male sexed people. As soon as these groups want something women are pushed aside and expected to be nice or be blamed.

So much this, and so, so depressing, we really are considered sub-human.

I can’t help but get a distinct whiff of despair from the GCs lately. I just looked at the official numbers who showed up at that official Marion Millar demo. Jesus It’s enough to make you physically ill the state of it all.

If you fancy another good laugh; check out the number of people who watch Glinner’s weekly YouTube videos these days. Numbers have barely budged in a year.

The GCs had their day in the sun but it seemed to lead to nothing. There’s no ‘winning’ here; all that press, all that hype, the country’s leading papers bleating in support morning, noon and night and for what?

GCs?? Pah. They look knackered.

Funny you never returned to the thread about organisations leaving the Stonewall Diversity Champions scheme, Lisz.

This: By insisting women shut up and move over and give up their rights, it’s become a war that didn’t need to happen.
Mutual respect was all we wanted all along
And just think of the energy that could have gone into other important causes such as opposing climate change and fighting for social and economic justice. This sometimes feels like a giant energy sink.

Not LGBT but was very involved in the gay community during the Aids crisis. Since then I followed and supported Stonewall. Like the rest of you, my support went when they expected to walk all over my rights.

I wonder if some of us are proclaiming their demise prematurely. This may well be a bad patch but it will probably have to get worse before we see a sea change. The positives for us is that the sunlight is blinding and once fear goes, there's little left to 'make us' give over our rights.

Oh, Lisz 😂😂😂