Ultra-processed foods and the burden on women

[Shedbuilder]

I've had two conversations this weekend with people who saw a BBC documentary on the dangers of ultra-processed foods. Both of them are mothers, both say that as far as they can see, the only way to avoid UPFs is to cook everything from scratch. Both of them are very food-aware anyway but both also work full-time. They talked about how they're going to have to be even more organised than normal, invest in an extra freezer to take even more batch-cooked meals etc. The stress in the air was palpable.

I know some men cook for the family but isn't this yet another burden that's going to be loaded mainly onto women?

From my small social circle, I listen to my friends moan on about their husbands being lazy blah blah but then carry on picking up the load around them.
I say they should down tools and make their husbands do more.

Downing tools doesn't lead to men picking up their share of the burden. It leads to accusations of nagging, more mess and misery for the person who has the lowest tolerance.

@Thelnebriati

From my small social circle, I listen to my friends moan on about their husbands being lazy blah blah but then carry on picking up the load around them. I say they should down tools and make their husbands do more.

Downing tools doesn't lead to men picking up their share of the burden. It leads to accusations of nagging, more mess and misery for the person who has the lowest tolerance.

I certainly wouldn't be washing and ironing my husband's shirts, for example.

Downing tools doesn't lead to men picking up their share of the burden.
In many households, it just leads to children not getting what they need.

@lazylinguist

Do you seriously believe there is no such thing as a mother's instinct?

It would be weird if we are the only creature on earth did not have an inbuilt instinct to mothering (in whatever form that has evolved)

I know you buy into the blank state theory, that much is obvious - I just find it ridiculous to believe that it was socialised into me to be neurotic about whether and what my children ate. It feels primal, not something I had read in Women's Own and felt I could reject or go along with.

It is a very strange coincidence that every human culture on earth has similar patterns

In many households, it just leads to children not getting what they need.

This is exactly how it worked here. If I didn't cook lunch, the kids had hotdogs or similar.

Since leaving my ex, I've actually naturally gravitated towards more home-cooked dinners/meal planning/exercise and stuff, for my own benefit as well as the kids, and despite in theory having to do more because it's just me and the kids plus my job, in practise I feel like I have more free time and mental resource, and I genuinely see spending the 20 mins making dinner, or making bread over an evening or whatever as a break from work.

Of course when I don't feel that, we have takeaway, or frozen nuggets or something - but in my case at least, unburdening myself of a partner means that happens less than once a week - ex just existing in the house was literally sucking the life out of me it turns out!

@hamstersarse

I really didn't think I'd see the 'oh it takes two minutes to...' bullshit on here. So wash the towels daily and don't use a toilet brush, scrub it by hand. And cook from scratch and don't forget to look pretty and smile nicely while you're doing it. And don't complain, just ask the men nicely to do half. They'll absolutely do it without any fuss

That’s the sort of bullshit that gets my goat about the constant patriarchy patriarchy patriarchy feminism.

Most women want to feed their children well. They just do. It bothers them. More than men.
It’s not social constructivism or because of socialisation, it just is. It’s fairly bloody obvious there is a biological grounding to this.

I’d rather the FWR stance on this would be around the support of women to fulfil the desires they have (in this case feeding their children well) and so that does mean sharing knowledge about how long it takes you to cut up potatoes. Given the marketing culture we live in, many people think it’s impossible to cook properly and beyond their capabilities....the marketing has worked, right!

Yeah, I kind of agree with this. It's not just about socialisation, men and women relate to their kids somewhat differently overall. This is not always a bad thing, I've managed to see certain things my husband does that are more effective and tried to adopt them, and vice versa.

And the barriers around cooking well and simply are various, but in many (not all) cases surmountable. Habits are difficult to change though and that's really true for all of us. Especially if we are under stress we revert to what is automatic and works without allocating brain space.

That being said: I think in this area, and women taking on externally prompted work generally, one thing women can learn from men is to just not internalise that pressure. There is a difference between deciding to do something, and doing what you can, which is good, and stressing about everything you feel you ought to do ideally, which tends to have poor outcomes. And I don't think it's just that mums are pressured more - part of it is that dads don't care if people question their parenting that way.

It would be weird if we are the only creature on earth did not have an inbuilt instinct to mothering (in whatever form that has evolved)
It would also be weird if we were the only species where the brain has evolved so much it's almost unrecognisable from the brains of other species, the only species to create language, the only species to.... well you get the picture.
Other species eat their young. We don't do that. I'm not convinced I'd say they had an instinct to mothering, frankly.

@drspouse

It would be weird if we are the only creature on earth did not have an inbuilt instinct to mothering (in whatever form that has evolved) It would also be weird if we were the only species where the brain has evolved so much it's almost unrecognisable from the brains of other species, the only species to create language, the only species to.... well you get the picture. Other species eat their young. We don't do that. I'm not convinced I'd say they had an instinct to mothering, frankly.

Well they don't learn it from a book.

I just find it ridiculous to believe that it was socialised into me to be neurotic about whether and what my children ate. It feels primal, not something I had read in Women's Own and felt I could reject or go along with.

I feel the exact opposite. I don't think it is in my nature to be neurotic about what my children eat, and I am in fact not neurotic about it. I am also fortunate enough to have a husband who loves cooking. I have phases of making more effort on the healthy food front, and feeling a bit guilty about buying 'bad' food, but it's not a 'mother instinct' thing at all, as it tends to be focused on my own diet as much as (if not more than) the children's. And it tends to be triggered by something I've read (like this thread!).

It's true that dh is much less bothered by healthy eating, but again, that is nothing to do with parenting. He's always been like that, since long before he was a parent. Essentially, I'm just a bit more health-conscious than him food-wise. Plus he's always done loads of sport etc, so weight tends not to be an issue for him.

Why is everyone so black and white?

It could be that because, by nature, women are more 'motherly' those instincts are are the basis of the socialisation side of the argument

Do you seriously believe there is no such thing as a mother's instinct?

Of course I believe in a mother's instinct. I just don't think that paranoia about the health levels of food are an instinct, or a specifically maternal thing, or even specifically a parenting thing.

It is a very strange coincidence that every human culture on earth has similar patterns

What patterns do you mean? Views on what is best or healthiest for children changes all the time, to the extent that even successive generations in the same family don't have the same parenting 'patterns', never mind different human cultures across the world!

Also - no, I don't believe in blank slate theory (I presume that's what you meant). Human beings' natures are quite clearly created by a mixture of biology and experience. We just don't necessarily agree about which bits are cause by what!

Mothers and fathers have an instinct to protect their child. You could certainly argue that feeding them non-processed food (or rather, feeding them whatever the current, frequently changing advice says is healthy) is a way of trying to protect them. But the fact that the onus of actually carrying that out tends to rest on the mother is, in my opinion, entirely down to the role of women, not to some specifically maternal instinct about nutrition.

Other species eat their young. We don't do that. I'm not convinced I'd say they had an instinct to mothering, frankly.

I said mothering in whatever form that comes.

Human females have abortions and pre-abortions they “left them out for the wolves” or “rolled over on them in the night”. Usually done with an instinct around what resources were available for the family as a whole.

Mothering is complex. Mothers instinct doesn’t mean Perfect.

Feeding our children well, I believe, is one of the common instincts from mothers and the tone of the op is just pointless....most (majority) of mothers want to be involved with what their children eat and it’s not a feminist issue in the way it’s being presented.

@IvyTwines2

Yes. And those (mostly male) TV chefs who say 'this would cost you £20 in a restaurant but you can make it for £4'. Yeah, if you don't value women's time as much as yours.

Oh I remember my ex talking proudly to the family of how well we ate on such a budget and how he'd never give the kids processed food or eat it himself and how it's not expensive to eat well.... not expensive when your wife (who earns £40 an hour in her day job) comes home and works for free for an hour in your kitchen every night.

Yes, the onus is always on women. Someone mentioned upthread about societal expectations and children being cleaner. My mum doesnt understand why we make sure our kids bathe every day , i seem to remember a bath once or twice a week!

Also there's expectations of arranged playdates and a buffet of healthy snacks provided, usually organised by mums. Its so much stress.

My dh sometimes helps, but will always throw the "ive got to work" card at me , even though i work too.

Also it may be cheaper financially, and better for the environment, but the hour of extra cooking and cleaning impacts too

They talked about how they're going to have to be even more organised than normal, invest in an extra freezer to take even more batch-cooked meals etc. The stress in the air was palpable
I've got to be honest, I've no sympathy for martyrs.

To me, from an evolutionary perspective, nature is fundamental. It guides our instincts and influences our socialization. That said, I believe people are influenced by a mix of nature and nurture. For each child, you only get one chance to raise healthy child. I think mothers FEEL this more than fathers. The stakes are high. In 19th century Britain, poor diet caused a reduction in adult height. In the last 50 years, deeply flawed dietary recommendations (high carb, low fat) have caused an epidemic of obesity.

For what it's worth, I now think a low carb high fat diet is the best. It is also simple. With high fat, you are full longer and eat less. No snacks. Meat is nutritious. You don't need fruit or fruit juice. Sausages and hamburger patties are quick to prepare. Serve with a salad. Fast food hamburgers are fine, just don't eat the bun.

@Angelica789

Those saying that cooking from scratch is easy and quick and anybody can do it are out of touch with the circumstances many people are living in.

You need decent pans, a decent oven and other utensils from knives to Pyrex bowls to make most things. You need nothing to make chips and nuggets except a tray that you can buy in the pound shop.

Try cooking in thin cheap, pans and you’ll soon realise that the tomato sauce burns rather than simmers. Try cooking when you’re on a key meter for your gas and electric and it’s costing you money to simmer that sauce for half an hour rather than taking a minute to heat through.

There are so many barriers here that people are just wilfully ignoring.

Scrambled eggs, frozen veg and a tomato sauce (from a jar) can be done in a microwave if you don't have a cooker. Boil a kettle and pour it into a bowl of pasta. Ready to serve in ten minutes.

I've got to be honest, I've no sympathy for martyrs.

Indeed. As a mum you’re either a martyr or lazy... apparently I’m the lazy one for putting something out of the freezer in the oven once or twice a week although I cook from scratch a plenty for most of the week. But I’d rather be a sensible ‘lazy’ mum who knows how to clock off and strike a balance than a martyr who gets up at 5.30 to prep veg for the soup I need to make from scratch after a 10 hour work day - because a tin of Heinz is apparently ‘not food’ but a ‘treat’
I don’t know about the feminist ins and outs of worrying about UPF - but I can say there’s a lot of rampant sexism sadly coming from other women on this thread.

Haha, I am so going to be saying that. If anyone wants to say anything about me plating up some chicken dippers or pizza

"I think you have the word martyr confused with the word mother" 🤣

Scrambled eggs, frozen veg and a tomato sauce (from a jar) can be done in a microwave if you don't have a cooker. Boil a kettle and pour it into a bowl of pasta. Ready to serve in ten minutes.

It's totally possible to do really simple healthy food pretty cheaply and without much time or equipment. And if you stick to a few things you only have to have some pretty simple ingredients on hand.

I don't think these are the things that end up standing in the way of people cooking differently, for the most part.

The number one thing is habit, and what people are used to eating, and buying, and making. Changing your own habit as a parent is difficult, and worse when you also have to get kids and maybe a spouse on board with eating differently.

What

I think it's cultural as well. During my first job in France we'd get a 1.5 hour lunch break and restaurant vouchers, part funded from your salary and part funded by the company. So everyone went to local restaurants pretty much everyday and had a proper lunch.
There was less snacking as a result and it was frowned upon to eat at your desk. No biscuits during meetings.

School lunches are 3 course affairs and no packed lunches allowed. The dishes are things that adults would eat.
France does have a growing UPF and obesity problem though so not perfect but still behind UK and USA.

School lunches are a huge thing here - one of the biggest surprises to me when my kids went to school in Ireland was that they don't sit down and eat lunch - they're expected to just take their lunchbox out to the playground and eat standing/sitting on the tarmac - I've not encountered that anywhere else (and I'll say no more than that the 'green initiative' of no single use plastic in a lunch box is certainly challenging)

Culture is massive - I'm very lucky, my mum, whilst not a gourmet chef, was a competent day-to-day cook, so I have a range of standard dinners that I've probably been cooking since I was about 10 that give me a solid base to work with. One of my good friends here just doesn't have that - she buys in so much pre-prepared food because she grew up in a chaotic family, and just doesn't have the fundamentals of cooking - and it's much more challenging to get those habits and that knowledge as an adult.

I fall firmly in the camp of bringing back home ec (for everyone) and making sure that everyone knows how to chop an onion, peel a potato, make a small range of dinners and not be intimidated by a recipe.

School lunches are a huge thing here - one of the biggest surprises to me when my kids went to school in Ireland was that they don't sit down and eat lunch - they're expected to just take their lunchbox out to the playground and eat standing/sitting on the tarmac - I've not encountered that anywhere else (and I'll say no more than that the 'green initiative' of no single use plastic in a lunch box is certainly challenging)
Same in Australia, though they had to sit for 10 minutes to eat lunch in the classroom then could take lunch outside or play. Snack at break outside. 'Nude' lunches encouraged.

Here in Canada lunches are totally rushed at school. They usually get 10 minutes to shove it down and then they are kicked outside.

I hated it as a kid and I hated the packed lunches, even though my mum went to some effort over them.