Buck Angel (transman) on Triggernometry: "Stop Medicalising Kids"

[ScreamingMeMe]

It's live at the moment, but you can rewind and watch from the beginning. Should be interesting.

Thanks, will watch this layer. Buck is always v sensible and interesting on Twitter

Oh, thank you so much, I didn't see that Buck was due to be on TriggerPod.

Buck was exceptionally helpful to me - I had a problem at work where I was called transphobic. I emailed him on the off chance that he might help, and he told me I wasn't transphobic in his eyes.

I was genuinely worried that I was going to get into real trouble at work, he took a fair bit of time to ask questions and answer questions.

I think he is important for transmen, he is frank that he is female and will never be male and that trans kids are not gender dysphoric.

I'd like to see a panel with Buck Angel, Ruth Hunt, Susie Greene and Prof Stock, Keira Bell and Maya Forstater - just picking through the issues in a civil way. Having a debate. I'd pay big money to see that.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria

That was so good of him. Buck does seem like a kind, genuine person.

Oh, fab, thanks, this will be a good watch, I'm sure.

As a lesbian, I'm not particularly impressed with Buck's negative influence on the lesbian community. Read Joey Brite's take on it for more information.

@WineAcademy

As a lesbian, I'm not particularly impressed with Buck's negative influence on the lesbian community. Read Joey Brite's take on it for more information.

I will. Thanks.

I don't think Joey is wrong. I do think that some people feel better with body modifications - whether that means gender difference is a thing or not I'm not sure, but, the medical literature and the law says it is.

So, what Joey says is academic, trans is a fact - the difficulty is that it is an undefined fact that creates all sorts of legal fictions and ethical dilemmas that no one in authority wants to pick through.

I'm afraid I'll have to take quite a hard stance against BA's take on social transition and how it impacts young lesbians long term, specifically.

Our community has been gutted; destroyed. BA is part of the problem, not the solution.

I am so sorry, Wine. It has occurred to me that my kids' don't have many butch role models. We had ten a penny in the 80s when I grew up.

I see what you mean, my kids don't have any peers who are lesbians. They are all pan or bi or NB.

I'll have a think about that, thanks.

Happy to read that, Wine, but I can't find it! Do you have a link, at all?

@ArabellaScott

Happy to read that, Wine, but I can't find it! Do you have a link, at all?

Happy to share this one: uncommongroundmedia.com/the-four-horsemen-of-the-gender-critical-apocalypse/

Magic, thank you. Will bookmark and read it tomorrow.

trans is a fact

In all good faith, I hold the opposite view, although it's very difficult to state it on MN and still stay inside talk guidelines.
I don't dispute the unhappiness people have, either with their bodies or the roles they believe people with their bodies are supposed to perform.
But I don't believe in innate group identities. Ergo, I don't believe in either a female or a male identity. In anyone.

And so far as the people who attempt to alter their healthy bodies to resemble the opposite sex, in service to unhealthy ideas of gender that reside in their minds? I do not think these people are healthy role models.

An actively anorexic person isn't fit to mentor others with the disorder.
An alcoholic person who isn't yet sober cannot help other alcoholics.
Both need to be in full recovery, have renounced their previously unhealthy thinking and habits, and to have come to terms with why they cannot continue to live that way going forwards.

Any person who entreats others to "do as I say, but not as I continue to do" cannot help others.

I don't believe anyone who still clings to "it was and still is the right thing for me" can ever help those who are desperate to believe it will also be the right thing for them too. That they, too, are the exception.

I know others see this differently.
But my honest belief is that altering your body and trying in any way to be anything other than the sex you are, is a form of severe harm. And I cannot condone it, for anyone.

I agree, personally, Barracker. The law, some medics, the WHO and the government disagree.

I'd find it easier to accept fi there was something objectively measurable, or even just consistency between people who regard themselves as having a gender difference. There is neither.

However, I don't think we can go back now.

In all good faith, I hold the opposite view, although it's very difficult to state it on MN and still stay inside talk guidelines

I agree!

The term, as far as I'm concerned, is one used to describe and frame a particularly type of human experience of suffering - in a certain way. It is not a fact, as such, or a material reality. It is a conceptual framework.

However, I don't think we can go back now

No, but greater clarity, and working towards a re-conceptualisation of what 'trans' means, or implies, is the way forward.

I can see all those points re Buck, and other people mentioned in the article. But surely nobody is holding Buck (or others) up as role models? Are they being suggested as mentors or people to help? I see Buck as someone with personal insight into dysphoria. I daresay there are many areas I would agree and many I might disagree with them on. I might imagine unpicking issues with gender is a long term process and someone who has been through it might have useful comment to make.

Thanks WineAcademy for the link, it's an interesting read.

There is a real dissonance between Buck's opinion of "stop transing kids" and their own life, what they have done to their otherwise healthy body - do as I say, not as I do.

Whilst I also agree with not medicating children, how can this message be seriously accepted when it comes from someone who is "performing masculinity" in such a gendered stereotypical way, against their sex?

For teenagers, young lesbians in particular, why does being gender non-conforming automatically equal "you must be a transboy/man"? Where are the "butch" lesbians of previous generations, to stand as role models for these teens? (Compare with Buck, a role model?? to aspire to for young lesbians identifying as trans)

But surely nobody is holding Buck (or others) up as role models? Are they being suggested as mentors or people to help?

Buck is referred to as "Tranpa" on Twitter - I think this insinuates Buck is a role model figure, does it not?

I'm also not supportive of Buck's participation in porn.

In fact, the more I think about it, the more I am rather aghast that this person is even being listened to - much less feted - as a voice of reason.

Gender-critical women, when you give props to Buck Angel or view her as an ally, remember the moment she sided with the country’s wealthiest, most powerful porn site against an exploited, 14-year old rape victim.

That poor girl.

I often wonder if Buck regrets their transition, but is just to far down the road to ever admit it?

Thanks for that link WineAcademy I haven't seen the tru-trans thing as catastrophic to GC but I do find the illogic baffling.

I take your well made points.

We need some research to look at women like Stella O'Malley who also had gender issues as a young woman and compare that with people like Buck - as Buck says, every injection highlights that they are not male and that is confronting, whereas Dr O'Malley is now happy in her female body.

And some cool young butch female role models, well, tick tockers, wouldn't go amiss.

All these negative comments about Buck.

But surely you're all still comfortable undressing with him in changing rooms, right? Because you think changing rooms must be segregated by sex-at-birth, right?

Yes, I'd be comfortable undressing in changing rooms with transmen and NB females, yeah.

They are female.

I don't see the problem.