Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

”I’m no prude”

71 replies

YouShouldLeave · 28/05/2021 10:04

So, so , so many times i’ve read this on around MN.
And it’s just hurts my brain.

As bad as slut-shaming is, i also think there should be conversation about prude-, virgin- and now can add vanilla-shaming to the list.

OP posts:
Nonmaquillee · 28/05/2021 15:05

@Susie477

The widespread pearl-clutching censorious prudishness about sex, nudity and to some extent porn & sex work was one of the things which surprised me about MN when I joined.

I genuinely thought most people were a bit more grown-up about this stuff these days. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Please can you elaborate? What do you mean about people on MN needing to be more grown up about “sex work”?
Nonmaquillee · 28/05/2021 15:06

@AssassinatedBeauty

Oh, look. There's an example of it right there.
Yes I noticed it too.
Nonmaquillee · 28/05/2021 15:07

@Shedbuilder

Prude, frigid, humourless feminist, lesbian — all words used by men when women hold their boundaries.
Yep

Where are the equivalent words to describe men?

Ah...there are none.... I wonder why 🤔🤔🤔

Shareddriveagghh · 28/05/2021 15:15

I have been called all those names by men, I suddenly feel quite proud.

WoolOfBat · 28/05/2021 15:17

I think being a libertarian needs to be carefully considered. I have no problem with what consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes. Go for it, enjoy! Please don’t tell me about it.

There is a lot of disgusting and illegal content out there, some involving children. Anyone producing, watching or owning anything like that needs to go to jail. For a long time. Anything without consent of the people involved needs to be taken down.

Sex work exploits women. I don’t think it is helpful to promote it in any way. I don’t care what some people think/say. I will try to help the women and expose the men.

OhWhyNot · 28/05/2021 15:18

I’ve been called vanilla by a colleague Hmm

Fine by me I know my boundaries

What I don’t do is try to impress or shock others with boring tales of my sex life

SunnydaleClassProtector99 · 28/05/2021 15:18

There are more problems with people trying to erode boundaries.
Pedaphila, trafficking, abuse and coercion all start with eroding boundaries.
You only have to venture on to a few threads on here, like the anime one to realise being 'cool' opens the door to damaging things.

MrsBunHat · 28/05/2021 15:18

"The key word, of course, being ‘choose’."

So if you're in a developing country, desperate for money to feed your kids, have a poor education and can't get good paid work because you're a girl, and resort to prostitution, where you are at major risk of injury and STDs, is that a choice?

Even in the west, many women are prostitutes because of grinding poverty, addiction, sexual abuse in childhood, trafficking and slavery.

Not thinking this is a good thing for women is not even slightly related to prudishness. It's political and about not wanting an unfair society where women so often end up in that position, having their bodies used as commodities and having very little choice at all.

If you think it's a choice, you need to think about why it isn't done in equal numbers by women and men.

Gwenhwyfar · 28/05/2021 15:19

"I don't think that people should be shamed for being a little conservative or vanilla in their attitudes to sex and nudity... but a prude, to me, goes further. They make a big fuss about innocuous things, and that makes them come across as weird and obsessed and like they have nothing better to do than get offended."

I don't agree with this definition. You're talking about someone like Mary Whitehouse who tries to impose her morality on everyone else. A prude is someone who is herself/himself embarrassed. It's personal.

I agree that prude shaming is a thing on MN.

QuentinBunbury · 28/05/2021 15:21

The problems start when those people then try to impose their own morality onto society by seeking to control or censor what others are allowed to read, watch, think or do with their own bodies and their own lives. I choose not to work in the sex industry, but as a libertarian, I am opposed to restrictions on those who make different choices to me. The key word, of course, being ‘choose’.
Women can choose to be sex workers.
Many of them don't "choose" they are forced by economic/life circumstances

However what your position doesn't consider is the impact on all women when individual women make choices that encourage men to view sex as an entitlement and women's bodies as a commodity.

I can't support sex work and porn because it affects how men view and treat women and upholds patriarchy. I can have that view without judging sex workers.

I do judge people who claim to be feminist while taking a position that damages womens interests

HoldontoOneMoreDay · 28/05/2021 15:22

Perhaps. But teens / young men and women who want to wait until they are married before having sex are roundly mocked and criticised, even by feminists. Taking such a stance is virtually unthinkable in 21st century Britain.

But there has to be free and enthusiastic consent within that choice. I would hopefully never mock anyone, but if a young woman wants to wait until she's married before having sex (and obviously asks me about it!) then I'd want to dig into that to make sure it is her choice, not the choice of her parents or her religion, for example. I also think the way society sees women as 'gatekeepers' of sex isn't helpful.

Susie477 · 28/05/2021 15:30

I do judge people who claim to be feminist while taking a position that damages womens interests

I do judge people who claim to be feminist while taking a position that restricts women’s freedoms and choices about what they do with their bodies, how they earn their livings and how they live their lives.

Gwenhwyfar · 28/05/2021 15:34

" if a young woman wants to wait until she's married before having sex (and obviously asks me about it!) then I'd want to dig into that to make sure it is her choice, not the choice of her parents or her religion, for example"

That's fair enough as long as you would ask the same question if she didn't want to wait.

WinterIsGone · 28/05/2021 15:39

In my experience, most women go into sex work because they feel they have no choice, though.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 28/05/2021 15:40

Let's talk about supporting choice. Like women's choices not to work in the sex trade, and whether talking about choice in this way is turning a blind eye to SLAVERY, please.

extract

A sophisticated acceptance of the sex industry, in virtually every form that does not involve children or animals, has become so prevalent that George Osborne's persecutors are now much more exercised by his alleged proximity to lines of coke than by his - entirely platonic - association with a prostitute who goes by the name of Mistress Pain.In less elevated circles, such as the website Punternet, where one can imagine obscure versions of Wayne Rooney or Hugh Grant or Jeffrey Archer seeking helpful tips or information, men who buy sex submit their reports in much the same righteous, easily aggrieved tone as the Good Food Guide's amateur inspectors, gittishly rating prostitutes for warmth of welcome, interior decor, value for money and whether or not they would recommend the individual in question to future users.

Clearly, standards in the domestic sex trade are not always what they should be. "She's Polish but her English isn't brilliant. Only been with the agency a couple of days," notes a discerning consumer whose fee was collected by "an agent". Communication seems to be a common problem: "English not her strongest language, but her personality more than compensated," comments another customer. On the plus side, the eastern European monoglots seem to be younger than the home-grown product. "If she wore a school uniform, she would have looked 16," gloats one report, whose author guesses that the woman in question was actually around 19 years old. The same age, then, as one of the Lithuanian girls whose auction last year, at the Costa Coffee concession at Gatwick airport, was described in a report on a sex-trafficking case in yesterday's Daily Mirror.

Much, quite rightly, was made of the vileness of the swarthy human traffickers who had duped these innocent girls into coming to Britain. Sentencing them to 21 and 16 years respectively, the judge, Trevor Barber, this week told Tasim Axhami, a Serb, and Emiljan Beqirat, a Lithuanian, "You have no moral values, scruples or compassion. Neither of you has any place in this or any other normal society."

In practice, Axhami and Beqirat found a warm welcome in some parts of this society. The shamelessness of the Punternet correspondents indicates that they, at any rate, would be affronted by any suggestion that they are not supremely normal. And yet without men like them, there would be no market for the traffickers and the women brought here to be raped, sold and imprisoned. One of their victims, a 19-year-old from Moldavia, has described how she was raped and subsequently installed in a City flat with six others. Their clients were generally married, and able to pay the women's pimps at least £100 per visit. The girls received nothing. It was after she appealed to one of these clients, a man in his 50s who gave her £200, that the girl escaped. The client had thought she was there voluntarily.

Perhaps the language barrier explains why so few of the men who are using - effectively raping - women who have been trafficked in this way never wonder if their young, obliging Moldavian, Lithuanian and Estonian companions might not prefer to be here as au pairs, or even to be back home, instead of submitting to sexual abuse from 30 strangers a day. If so, there are other clues and telltale signs they might watch out for.

For example, they might look around the massage parlour, or brothel, and, as well as awarding marks for neatness, wonder: are these girls obviously held captive? In the recent raid on Cuddles, the Birmingham massage parlour where 19 women were immured, police had to use battering rams to knock down locked internal doors, windows had been boarded up, and an electric fence stopped anyone trying to escape from the back of the building. What kind of person lives in a house like this?

(Continues)
In reality, it is probably the extreme powerlessness of these complaisant, identity-free foreign girls, who could never talk back even if they wanted to, that renders them such appealing members of a trade in which women are commodities. The indulgence extended to glossier participants in the lap-dancing end of the sex industry cannot account for the thousands of law-abiding British men for whom the abuse of a trafficked teenager constitutes a satisfying sexual encounter. But perhaps the two things are not wholly unrelated.

Continues: www.theguardian.com/society/2005/oct/20/penal.comment

Wearywithteens · 28/05/2021 15:42

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn at the poster's request.

Bunshaped · 28/05/2021 15:46

I choose not to work in the sex industry, but as a libertarian, I am opposed to restrictions on those who make different choices to me. The key word, of course, being ‘choose

I detest this argument. It comes from a place of such privilege and naivety about the real lives of women, particularly those who are poor or struggling. When options are severely limited or non-existent, or coercion is involved, what is this "choice"?

You will not find many on here who judge the women themselves for sex work. They judge the system itself in which this is seen as a "choice" by those privileged enough to never have to choose it.

QuentinBunbury · 28/05/2021 15:47

taking a position that restricts women’s freedoms and choices about what they do with their bodies, how they earn their livings and how they live their lives.
Nope. Not my position at all. Any individual woman is welcome to be a sex worker. No judgement here for that. But I don't condone societal practices that make it easier for men to buy sex.

I'd be totally behind any initiatives to make it safer for sex workers, such as proper health and safety legislation, or activities that ensure porn being produced is consensual and legal. But strangely that isn't what the "womens choice" brigade usually want. They more often say "well a woman's doing it so it's totally fine!!" without considering whether anything can be done to minimise damage to the individual or to women as a whole.

Tell me how the "woman's choice" model can reduce the likelihood of men abusing feeling entitled to women's bodies, and harming women as a result. Because that is my concern and "choice" feminism doesn't address it

jellybeansforbreakfast · 28/05/2021 15:47

I choose not to work in the sex industry, but as a libertarian, I am opposed to restrictions on those who make different choices to me. The key word, of course, being ‘choose’.

Yeah! Choose! Like that is the reality for many women who are traficked, girls who are sold.

I do judge people who claim to be feminist while taking a position that restricts women’s freedoms and choices about what they do with their bodies, how they earn their livings and how they live their lives. You might need to take a small step back and read some of the posts that explain why sex work is not work but exploitation. As in THINK rather than spout the work is work, choice is a choice.

Have a look at some of the recent rape case sentencing and see what the pornification of sex has done to young women 's expectations of their rapist being found guilty and actually sentenced.

Your honour I tripped and my penis accidentally fell into her
She was wearing a thong

BOTH have been succesful defences very recently. As have some failry horrific stories of the sex expectations of young men for whome hardcore porn is a common viewing choice.

And then look at the, hopefully now removed from all schools, sex education that includes anal as a 'normal and every day kind of sex'.

You aren't being libertarian. You are being complicit

QuentinBunbury · 28/05/2021 15:49

You aren't being libertarian. You are being complicit
YES

StrawberryLipstickStateOfMind · 28/05/2021 16:03

@Bunshaped

I choose not to work in the sex industry, but as a libertarian, I am opposed to restrictions on those who make different choices to me. The key word, of course, being ‘choose

I detest this argument. It comes from a place of such privilege and naivety about the real lives of women, particularly those who are poor or struggling. When options are severely limited or non-existent, or coercion is involved, what is this "choice"?

You will not find many on here who judge the women themselves for sex work. They judge the system itself in which this is seen as a "choice" by those privileged enough to never have to choose it.

This entirely.

I don't judge women who do sex work at al. I judge the vile men who think it's acceptable to pay for another human's body.

It's a pathetic argument to say it's a woman's choice to do sex work- completely ignorant of all the women who are being trafficked and abused. Is it really a choice, when the alternative is starvation/being homeless etc?

Just how many women do you think 'choose' sex work because it seems like a decent job opportunity/career @Susie477 ?

RoseMarinus · 28/05/2021 16:03

Is this another case of everyone being expected to conform to the new norm? What a load of spineless sheep we are turning into!
I was a virgin until I married and have never felt the urge to have sex with anyone else. I dislike unnecessary sex scenes in dramas, and do not admire any actor who is willing to discard their clothing for the titillation of the audience.
Label me a prude if you wish, but I am as I am and am not changing my stance just because it's old-fashioned.

Beowulfa · 28/05/2021 16:07

I don't mind being called a prude if it means I don't have to feign interest in anal, remove my pubic hair and be photographed naked by my partner "because that's what everyone else does".

It's not like I've ever been cool and down wiv da kidz, so bit late to start worrying about it in middle age.

I remember when I first learnt the definition of prostitute from a school friend, aged 12 (I'd got it muddled up with protestant and had a vague idea it was someone very religious); "someone who has sex for money". The bluntness of those words has never left me.

Tibtom · 28/05/2021 16:09

The problems start when those people then try to impose their own morality onto society

And that is what you are doing when you condemn women as prudes and pearl clutchers

FindTheTruth · 28/05/2021 16:11

there's an example here where a Mum objects to Proud Trust teaching 13 year old school girls about inserting objects in the Anus and other issues. 1 poster appears to say "nothing wrong with it". Vipers share info and links in good faith. Poster tells FWRs "you're Vanilla" (actually it was "your vanilla"). Vipers called the poster on it...
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4064311-Meeting-my-MP-about-the-Proud-Trust-sex-ed-materials?pg=3

Agree OP, it happens quite often. conflating safeguarding concerns with prudishness.

Shaming safeguarding = NOT cool