Imposter syndrome - a female only thing?

[KitchenDancefloor]

Hi, I'm posting this in feminism chat but I'm not sure if it belongs here, but just wanted to get it off my chest.

I really struggle with imposter syndrome, feeling like I'm winging it through life and any moment someone is going to catch me out. I'll be fired from the job I am qualified for and have years of experience in. My kids will work out that parenting is something I do but don't fully understand and will never take me seriously again, etc.

After a day of minor things going wrong and feeling self-critical, I asked my husband if he ever gets imposter syndrome. Not only had he not heard of it, but he couldn't grasp the concept when I explained it to him as it was so alien to him. "But why would someone catch you out? You're not doing anything wrong. Who would be looking for your mistakes anyway?" He was very literal and just didn't get it.

So my question is, do men get imposter syndrome? I've worked with some men who seem to have the opposite issue of misplaced self confidence in their mediocre abilities (and lots of sensible, decent types too).

It's a personal view but I don't think men doubt themselves in the same way. When I worked in recruitment i noticed that men would take a punt on applying for a job if they didn't tick all the boxes. Women tended to really agonise whether they should or not.
Wonder if there's any research on this?

My DH has often told me he is winging it as the MD of his business. In fact, just this weekend I had to laugh when the Pet Shop Boys "Getting Away With It All My Life" came on the radio, and he said "Here's my theme tune!".

Yes they do. I know quite a few men who have said this to me.

OTOH I don't get it.

Women may well get it more I'm sure... But I wonder if the fact we so often have to prove ourselves, can and do get subtle stuff that we know means we are being judged to high standards etc...

As with a lot of this stuff I don't think it's about women and how they are but often a reaction to the cues we get from others iyswim.

Not all workplaces but it's definitely a thing.

Men do get it, the question is what proportion of men get it compared to women.

And how much does it hold them back?

The men i know who have mentioned imposter syndrome still have great jobs with decent salaries.

I've spoken about it with DP and I know he gets it - especially with parenting!

One of my favourite recent descriptions of imposter phenomenon is from Rageshri Dhairyawan:

"I experienced such a situation this summer. I had tweeted a thread detailing thirteen health conditions in which Black and Asian communities had worse outcomes than White communities in the UK, to illustrate that ethnic inequalities in health existed well before COVID-19. One of the first reactions was someone quote-tweeting me with the words “Is this true and has it been medically fact checked?” I had referenced each statistic with a link directly to the cited paper, and had used my full name with Dr as my title, as well as my position and the NHS trust where I work, in my twitter profile, so this was an unwanted surprise. My partner, a philosopher, helpfully told me I had been regarded as having a “credibility deficit” and had experienced a “testimonial injustice”.

The term, testimonial injustice was coined by philosopher Miranda Fricker and is a type of epistemic injustice, or wrongdoing related to knowledge 1. Testimonial injustice occurs when the listener discounts the credibility of the speaker’s word due to prejudice about their social identity, and is often associated with gender, ethnicity, class, sexuality or religion. The speaker experiences a credibility deficit. Fricker argues that the problem, and potential solutions require us to pay attention to relationships between individuals. In contrast, the term “credibility excess” refers to those whose word is more likely to be regarded as rational, competent and therefore credible, due to their social identity.

blogs.bmj.com/bmjleader/2020/10/08/reframing-imposter-phenomenon-by-rageshri-dhairyawan/

Apparently men and women are equally likely to experience it, but women are more likely to feel comfortable talking about it.

slate.com/business/2016/04/is-impostor-syndrome-real-and-does-it-affect-women-more-than-men.html

I don't think it is helpful to lump all men together in one homogeneous group. Some men will experience imposter syndrome - some won't.

On these boards there seems to be an attitude that men (esp white men) walk into high flying careers by dint of being male. This isn't true in my experience - some men really struggle. I do think class background and schooling are as important as anything else when it comes to imposter syndrome. Thinking about our previous PMs, I expect John Major suffered from it and that David Cameron didn't.

This article changed how I think about ‘imposter syndrome’:

www.google.com/amp/s/hbr.org/amp/2021/02/stop-telling-women-they-have-imposter-syndrome

Even as we know it today, imposter syndrome puts the blame on individuals, without accounting for the historical and cultural contexts that are foundational to how it manifests in both women of color and white women. Imposter syndrome directs our view toward fixing women at work instead of fixing the places where women work.

Imposter syndrome took a fairly universal feeling of discomfort, second-guessing, and mild anxiety in the workplace and pathologized it, especially for women. As white men progress, their feelings of doubt usually abate as their work and intelligence are validated over time. They’re able to find role models who are like them, and rarely (if ever) do others question their competence, contributions, or leadership style. Women experience the opposite.

I work in a sector with a lot of high achievers (I'm not one of them ) and yes, men experience it too. Have seen amazing self-doubt in some extremely talented/knowledgeable people.

My dp has imposter syndrome. He is very knowledgeable and skilled in his sector but constantly doubts himself and is waiting to be "found out".

I don't think it's a male/female issue.

Thanks for the responses. I love the phrase 'credibility excess', it perfectly describes the overconfidence and credibility that some people project. David Cameron is a brilliant example.

I was massively oversimplifying how I felt about the conversation I had with my husband by using our sex to generalise. In one way he is a stereotype of a white male in a senior role. But he is also a working class lad who has grafted to get where he is so he has no reason to second guess himself, so I should be glad it hasn't even occurred to him.

I'll look into the links as well.

I recruit a lot of people and notice that it is often women who will have self doubt about whether to apply or who will be more reticent about their achievements at interview. So understanding imposter syndrome, and whether it really exists, will be helpful.

Sure some do. My husband was managing partner of a big law firm and he felt it for sure. He was first generation to go to uni (Oxford), worked incredibly hard, was seen as confident, dynamic and a gifted motivator and leader.
However I know he had his doubts, worried he'd get 'found out', feared it could all be taken away in an instant.
But I always thought feeling like this is what drives people to keep proving themselves? That they need to keep being successful and achieving to ward off the doubts? Isn't it a known motivator?

I work in psychological therapy and imposter syndrome is rife. The team I currently work with has more men then women and I know from discussion they all regularly struggle with this still, even though many of them have been qualified and in this line of work for many years. Personally, I certainly feel it in my professional life but less in my personal life. I do struggle with self doubt generally though, and take quite a long time to consider decisions.

I think it's a very human thing. Only an utterly self-absorbed person would never doubt themselves or their abilities.

Men probably don't admit to it or talk about it, especially in front of other men, because it's not good to show weakness or a lack of confidence. It's culturally more acceptable for women to talk about these things, although I'm sure many women are wise enough to not reveal it in front of colleagues.

I'm sure background experiences can mean some individuals are more prone to grappling with such feelings on a fairly regular basis than others. Women and men who have had encouragement and positive reinforcement growing up might be less likely to doubt their abilities whereas negative experiences or a lack of support, bullying etc can make you internalise failures and feel there's something permanently wrong with you.

I'd be interested to know if women who went to single-sex schools are less likely to experience imposter syndrome.
Also I'd be interested in how many women experience imposter syndrome if they work in a male dominated field vs a female dominated field.

Yes men get it. In fact, before I read this thread I thought I’d heard men have it more than women due to them more likely to find themselves in “senior” positions.

Yes we do. I’m reasonably senior but still have a lot of times when I genuinely don’t know what I’m doing. It’s the same for a lot of my peers (men and women).

I wonder if we hide it a bit better than women? Conditioning to never say we have a problem (thanks societal toxic masculinity). If often told how confident I am but I think I’m just pretending to be confident a lot of the time.

@ContessaVerde

Men do get it, the question is what proportion of men get it compared to women.

And how much does it hold them back?

The men i know who have mentioned imposter syndrome still have great jobs with decent salaries.

Yes this is dh

He thinks he is going to be found out and that he doesn’t deserve his salary

I do agree though that in my limited experience a lot of men will go for jobs where they don’t fit the remit, i do know a few women who have done the same but not as many

Interestingly, it can be about too much internalizing and funnily enough too much self absorption. I'm speaking from a life of self doubt which I have only come to terms with in the last ten years. Along with self doubt was depression. I wondered, in my many thoughts on trying to stamp on the problem, whether it wasn't a really fantastic evolutionary tool. If we never had any self doubt we would never excel at anything. Those who doubt their abilities are the most likely to push themselves.

This was useful to me. I still have self doubt but now use it in a positive way

Yes my dp gets it.

Yes my partner gets it.

However I think what is more important is how does it affect him? I would say that being a man means that he has so much less mental load already taken up by making his face and body look "acceptable", or by safely navigating the world around him. So the imposter syndrome doesn't drain him like it might a woman.

And - perhaps this wouldn't translate in a different sphere of work - but I wonder if it actually endears him to his colleagues. Men seem to see him as non threatening and women see him as more like them. He seems very well liked, which has helped with working his way up.

And of course his route "up" was not troubled by concerns about pregnancy, birth, breastfeeding etc.

DH has it. He's always said he's lucky with his job and expects them to come and tap him on the shoulder and tell him they know he's winging it. His job is not something you can't wing, I don't even understand what he does.

He's had therapy and it doesn't affect him quite so badly now but it's certainly not a female thing.

As for parenting, God were all bloody winging it. Even playing at being an adult I feel we wing it everyday.

Something you can wing!

Dominic Cummings had imposter syndrome. In his account, he said that he (and Boris Johnson, and various other high ups) didn’t deserve to be there.

Oh, wait...he clearly didn’t deserve to be there so not so much ‘imposter syndrome’ as actual imposter.

EmbarrassingAdmissions

Brilliant link. I think it describes the aggressions and micro-aggressions that women face that shape so-called 'imposter syndrome' - which is then turned on women who are blamed for their inadequacy in some way.

The other side to this is that I've seen women who don't have imposter syndrome and who are confident 'taken down'. In some ways, it seems safest to be insecure!