Elliot Page undergoes “lifesaving” “top surgery”

[OnWednesdaysWeWearMink]

BBC R1 news beat has just reported that Elliot page has undergone “life saving” “top surgery”.

Here is the related web article: www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-57239448

This reporting perpetuates the narrative that people will commit suicide if they don’t get the right sort of treatment. I find it deeply irresponsible. Does anyone know if Samaritans are tackling this sort of coverage in their media guidelines? I’d hope work is going on behind the scenes as they are a fantastic charity. (I assume they are not captured?)

A double mastectomy is usually lifesaving when it comes to breast cancer... so I find calling an elective cosmetic procedure lifesaving pretty insulting. But that’s just me being petty and not the main point.

I’m literally willing to pay £££ to be literally educated.

And to the person who asked about brain scans to identify before surgery - interesting point. I’m not sure it’s something I’d personally advocate for - at the end of the day it’s their body so I’m not sure they need to ‘prove’ anything if they want to alter it.

Phew, thank goodness for the above. I was worried the "acceptance without question" hurdle had been bypassed, but there it is (checks watch) right on time.

I think academic papers behind a Paywall are fine, there will be lots of us with openAthens accounts or similar. Though if it is the INAH3 papers by Lanvey and all the spinoffs, I believe someone has already addressed all of those in a really detailed post earlier. Also as a few others have pointed out, if brains do have dimorphic traits, but the body is unambiguously male or female, then it is really irrelevant as it just means that there is some overlap of the normal distribution curves between male and female populations. It still wouldn't back up a gendered brain in the wrong body narrative, it would just be examples of gender non conforming people unless gender non conforming controls were also compared with people with an incongruent gender Identity.... And even then it would still be the vagina havers who needed to be grouped based on their reproductive role.

And to the person who asked about brain scans to identify before surgery - interesting point. I’m not sure it’s something I’d personally advocate for - at the end of the day it’s their body so I’m not sure they need to ‘prove’ anything if they want to alter it.

Do you think the NHS should take this approach to surgery and medical prescriptions on a wider scale?

For example, if I have been reading about thyroid hormone imbalances, and believe that this is an issue that affects me, should I be able to go in and get a prescription on demand without any tests being performed?

What if I have decided that my recurrent ankle issues mean I need ankle replacement surgery? Should I get to proceed straight to surgery, on my word alone, without anyone else assessing my ankle to see if surgery is truly the best course of action?

Shall have a look! I’m very close to giving birth so if I go silent that may be the reason - but I have no doubt I’ll have some late night feeds for reading up on things so if I suddenly pop back in a few weeks, please excuse my delayed reply !

[quote WeavingWandering]@CuriousaboutSamphire I’ve literally published papers on neuroscience… I’m always happy to read more because I’m a nerd but I hope I’d know my stuff at that point.[/quote]
????

The thought of that is scary.

Unless of course you really work in a publishing house. 😊

Good luck with the birth, Weaving, hope it all goes well for you.

@MaudBaileysGreenTurban

I'm fairly sure that lots of the posters on this thread will have institutional access to any paper you care to share *@WeavingWandering*

Yep, I could access it through a work account.

Good luck with the birth!

leaf I'm guessing this one.

www.creativeeducation.co.uk/courses/how-can-schools-and-colleges-support-students-who-are-gender-variant/#learndash-course-content

I will have a proper look, but had my second jab today and I feel crook.

But which gender brain have you made there Weaving?

How will you know?

Good luck with the birth!

I can also access most academic papers via work, so looking forward to your links.

And to the person who asked about brain scans to identify before surgery - interesting point. I’m not sure it’s something I’d personally advocate for - at the end of the day it’s their body so I’m not sure they need to ‘prove’ anything if they want to alter it.

So does the brain scan matter in showing that someone is trans, or doesn't it? You explained it as proof that being trans is real.

So if someone doesn't have the evidence in their brain scan, that means they are not trans and transitioning could be a grave error for them. At least for NHS treatment the scan should be compulsory, otherwise you're spending money on people who aren't trans and they're taking valuable places away from those who are, what with the long waiting lists. And what about male rapists in prison who suddenly identify as trans? Surely a brain scan would be sensible for them, to check they are a woman before they get put in a woman's prison. If not, are you actually saying that it's fine for a man to pretend to be a woman with the ulterior motive of gaining access to female victims, even if he is not trans and that could definitely be proved? Why?

Obviously, I don't think brain scans really show any such thing, but you do. So how is self-ID compatible with there being evidence when you do a brain scan?

If trans people have special brains and that can be shown, then that should be the definition of trans.

If anyone can self-ID as trans irrespective of their brain scan results, then why mention it?

@WeavingWandering if you are a published academic I think you also need to brush up on your basic skills.

#1 know your stuff and if you don't Stfu particularly if you are in company with people who do

#2 if you voice a theory be ready to cite your evidence, you don't form a theory and then retrospectively look for evidence to back it up. Recipe for bias right there.

#3 Always critically assess the quality of your evidence. Sample size. Methodology. Make up of the study team. Strength of conclusions. Potential alternative conclusions.

#4 look at all the evidence, not just the stuff that supports your hypothesis.

Spout shite on here and you will get your arse handed to you on a plate.

I couldn’t sleep last night with excitement waiting for the links to these journal articles.

Do we have them yet?

Spout shite on here and you will get your arse handed to you on a plate.

This is why I love this board!

@TinyRobins

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Erm, I got deleted for saying EP looks unwell? Seriously

@Leafstamp

Spout shite on here and you will get your arse handed to you on a plate.

This is why I love this board!

I think what you really mean is you'll get hounded off the board by a hive mind, whose extreme views have largely been rejected by civilised society.

I think what you really mean is you'll get hounded off the board by a hive mind, whose extreme views have largely been rejected by civilised society.

What extreme views are they?

@thedancingbear when someone who claims to have published in neuroscience makes sweeping claims about gendered brains with zero evidence to support, they should have their arse handed to them. That is not hounding. That is critical thinking and having standards.

I would not have been so forthright had this person not said they were published. They should absolutely know better.

I think what you really mean is you'll get hounded off the board by a hive mind, whose extreme views have largely been rejected by civilised society.

You could have phrased your opinion in loads of different ways that didn't involve telling someone "what they really mean". It's not a good tactic if you want to be taken seriously.
And by the way, if you think reading opinions you don't agree with is "hounding off", then women are being hounded off loads of places. I'm being hounded off right now! Why won't you stop with the hounding?

@Erikrie

I think what you really mean is you'll get hounded off the board by a hive mind, whose extreme views have largely been rejected by civilised society.

What extreme views are they?

Such extreme views like:

“That’s an outlandish claim, can you provide evidence?”

I believe GCHQ and the NSA filter metadata for such statements to help narrow down their searches .

I think what you really mean is you'll get hounded off the board by a hive mind, whose extreme views have largely been rejected by civilised society. Hardly. A sothers have said the higher you reach the furthe you have to fall. And @WeavingWandering claimed some quite specific and highly qualified things.

As I aid, some of us here are eually qualified, and may even have published in various journals, book chapters etc. But we wouldn't crow about them unless we were willing to identify our real life selves. I've told the story of one of my publications a few times, nobody has ever asked to see it as it was not the point of the tale. I wouldn't use the reality of it to prove I am who/what I say I am as it would remove my anonymity. But I WOULD use the expertise and data I have because of it to back up anything I claimed. Which is what was asked for before the "I am a published neuroscience expert" claim was made! We were offered Creative Learning!!!!!

I think what you really mean is you'll get hounded off the board by a hive mind, whose extreme views have largely been rejected by civilised society

Extreme views like humans can't actually change sex? That has only been rejected by a tiny minority of dangerous people. Are you one of them?

“That’s an outlandish claim, can you provide evidence?”

Ahh. That sort of extreme view. Got it. Well evidence isn't really fashionable these days is it...