Elliot Page undergoes “lifesaving” “top surgery”

[OnWednesdaysWeWearMink]

BBC R1 news beat has just reported that Elliot page has undergone “life saving” “top surgery”.

Here is the related web article: www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-57239448

This reporting perpetuates the narrative that people will commit suicide if they don’t get the right sort of treatment. I find it deeply irresponsible. Does anyone know if Samaritans are tackling this sort of coverage in their media guidelines? I’d hope work is going on behind the scenes as they are a fantastic charity. (I assume they are not captured?)

A double mastectomy is usually lifesaving when it comes to breast cancer... so I find calling an elective cosmetic procedure lifesaving pretty insulting. But that’s just me being petty and not the main point.

if you look at brain scans of trans people, their brains are literally made like the brain of their identified gender See, I was actually reading your post @WeavingWandering with a truly openmind, quite prepared to respond.

Then I go to that! And al I can say is NO NO NO NO NO No and many more times NO! That is eminently wrong for so very many reasons, most of which have been given already! You cannot believe that! Well, you can, but may I suggest you do a bit more reading of gold standard, peer reviewed science before you think to say it out loud at work, amongst people who have medical degrees?

And yes @Cleanandpress that lept out at me too!

if you look at brain scans of trans people, their brains are literally made like the brain of their identified gender

No. This is false. In some very small group studies some minor similarities in brain structure between homosexual MTF trans people and the control group of women have been observed that are not shared with the control men. When the group was controlled for sexual orientation heterosexual MTF trans people didn't have these similarities. So they appear to be dependent on sexual orientation. Furthermore the effect of brain plasticity or taking cross sex hormones has not been ruled out.

Heterosexual MTF trans people were found (in the couple of studies where this was looked at) to have no specific similarity with the female control population, but have a difference from the men in an area related to body self perception.

This is even before looking at socialisation, and considering why you see an outlier male brain as a female brain rather than an outlier male brain.

Now I have read all of it and I feel a tad queasy!

That was nothing like a logic path @WeavingWandering NOTHING!

Before you try again can I also tell you that many of the women who post here are really well educated, many in areas around human physiology etc. You'd have to pull the wool REALLY hard to confuse us!

What if Paris Lees/Munroe Bergdorf/Elliot Page had brain scans and it showed they weren't trans after all?

Bergdorf did do exactly that in the C4 prog What makes a woman.

It was inconclusive.

@CuriousaboutSamphire I’ve literally published papers on neuroscience… I’m always happy to read more because I’m a nerd but I hope I’d know my stuff at that point.

WeavingWandering So why haven't you provided any evidence to back up your claims about how brains are 'made'? What do you have to say about the articles I posted?

Goody gumdrops. You sound like exactly the person I need to explain all this to me.

So we have an egg and a Y sperm, which fuse. Then we will have our little male morula, and then the cell differentiation starts happening, including the formation of neural cells.

What makes a brain made of male cells in a body of male cells female? Even if there is a configurational difference shared by some female brains and some male brains, why does that make the latter female?

Why are people being othered from their genetic sex, on the basis of it? Surely accepting differences is what diversity initiatives are about?
Would you say people with slightly unusual brains for humans weren't human? Of course not, there's even a phrase for that: accepting neurodiversity.

So why is it different here?

Also WeavingWandering do agree that as you think brain scans show that someone is trans, then doctors should do brain scans to check before letting anyone have blockers or hormones or surgery that they might regret? And obviously no self ID as we have the scans?

I'm reading 'The XX Brain' at the moment. Just started, but this is in the 1st chapter:

'It is important to point out that although male and female brains are to some extent wired differently and exhibit some biochemical differences, this doesn't have a big effect on behaviour. To be perfectly clear, there is nothing in our biology to justify the gender pay gap in equality, wages or opportunities. There is also no scientific basis for a 'gendered brain.''

(emphasis mine)

Dr Lisa Mosconi, director of the Women's Brain Initiative, associate prof of Neuroscience

You have published papers on neuroscience, Wandering? Fab. Can you direct us to the evidence that supports your arguments, then?

@MrsBunHat

Also WeavingWandering do agree that as you think brain scans show that someone is trans, then doctors should do brain scans to check before letting anyone have blockers or hormones or surgery that they might regret? And obviously no self ID as we have the scans?

Given such scans haven’t been validated on children or at all and that logically there is no logic to any of it pubertal brain development would play a factor in what is seen on a scan, I would fully endorse no child being given any puberty blockers or cross sex hormones unless they have finished pubertal brain development, had a scan, and met fictional radiological criteria for being trans.

Yep I’d love to read some of these papers Wandering, can you point me to them. I need to educate myself.

[quote WeavingWandering]@CuriousaboutSamphire I’ve literally published papers on neuroscience… I’m always happy to read more because I’m a nerd but I hope I’d know my stuff at that point.[/quote]
Do you use the word literally so prolifically in you publications?

I'd love to read them too please. I mean, I could easily have jumped the gun with my 'bullshit' comment just because it sounds so silly.

[quote WeavingWandering]@CuriousaboutSamphire I’ve literally published papers on neuroscience… I’m always happy to read more because I’m a nerd but I hope I’d know my stuff at that point.[/quote]
Wow, so in neuroscience speak then how are brains literally made like the brain of their identified gender.

And agender? How are agender brains made, literally

I’ll read the papers you have sent before passing judgement … and will try find some open source ones to support my point (since I doubt there’s any point directing people to something behind a paywall - academic papers are £££ ) But again, I’d suggest the creative education training on gender identity since it’s free and accessible! Apologies if I’m not on in straight away- nudge me if I don’t get on it.

And to the person who asked about brain scans to identify before surgery - interesting point. I’m not sure it’s something I’d personally advocate for - at the end of the day it’s their body so I’m not sure they need to ‘prove’ anything if they want to alter it.

I'm literally on tenterhooks at the end of the day to hear more about how brains are made.

I know. I made two earlier and wanted to check I did it right.

Well, here's one, see if you can find anything on their methodology, sample size, etc - I couldn't:

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180524112351.htm

I’ve literally published papers on neuroscience… I’m always happy to read more because I’m a nerd but I hope I’d know my stuff at that point.

Gosh, I can't wait to read those. If you pop your publications on here I expect I can get hold of them through work without paying £££. ☺️

I'm fairly sure that lots of the posters on this thread will have institutional access to any paper you care to share @WeavingWandering

I'm fairly sure that lots of the posters on this thread will have institutional access to any paper you care to share

Yes absolutely. I do.

@WeavingWandering

I’ll read the papers you have sent before passing judgement … and will try find some open source ones to support my point (since I doubt there’s any point directing people to something behind a paywall - academic papers are £££ ) But again, I’d suggest the creative education training on gender identity since it’s free and accessible! Apologies if I’m not on in straight away- nudge me if I don’t get on it.

And to the person who asked about brain scans to identify before surgery - interesting point. I’m not sure it’s something I’d personally advocate for - at the end of the day it’s their body so I’m not sure they need to ‘prove’ anything if they want to alter it.

I haven’t been able to find this training course you’ve referred to by Creative Education, please could you direct me to it @WeavingWandering? Thanks

That's funny. The second report on that link completely contradicts the first one.