Local Men's Group

[CervixSampler]

The local paper is running an article on a local men's group for those who are finding lockdown and the pandemic in general a struggle. It made me wonder if the group is open to trans men (apologies if there shouldn't be a space there). The reply I got appeared to say that trans men would have specific issues different to that of men. Yet, the WI is open to all, based on identity. Why is this and is it a thing that women's groups are now inclusive of all but men's are not? Are there any die hard men only clubs out there?

Go and join and see what they say.

Then come back and let us know

I was directed to local trans men's club but they didn't know if there were any.

Is the Mason's still men only? What about certain Army regiments? Priests? Pretty sure we don't have any female priests, only vicars and ministers. Female Islamic church leaders or Jewish leaders? Imagine if one day there was a female Pope!

[Uninformed opinion from a man]. Men's groups are pretty rare I think. I like to think that some would be open to trans-men. But I can't see many trans-men thinking that a men's group is going to be a good place for support, and secondly, if they were, the issues wouldn't involve (m)any men feeling less safe.

I have no evidence that trans-men are posing a threat (actual or perceived, both being relevant) to male spaces.

I get the point here, and think it's a good example of how unequal this doctrine/religion is.

But also, men are at risk from suicide, and I think do as you would be done by, and I respect their need for a single sex space.

I just wish men would do likewise!

I wouldn't want to stoop to their level.

The Church of England has female priests. Priest is the generic term; vicar, chaplain, minister are job titles for the specific post, just like in medicine doctor is the generic term and GP or paediatrician or dermatologist describe the job they do.

Massive detail, sorry. It’s true that the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches don’t ordain women (or transmen) as priests. They rely on religious exemptions from equality legislation, as do Muslims and Orthodox Jews, who don’t allow women or transmen to be imams/rabbis.

The Men's Pond at Hampstead Heath had no difficulty in calling the police to assert their sex-based restrictions when Man Friday visited.

And, yes - I think it's inappropriate. I wish other groups/individuals would take a clue from that.

It does illustrate that men's single-sex spaces are under no threat (quite right too, places to socialise separately from the opposite sex are valuable) while women's single-sex spaces are being invaded (quite wrong).

What were the different needs they anticipated a transman would have that men wouldn’t?

Yes, that's my point, the inequality of this. It's got me wondering now if trans men have any specific needs that a group could meet or are they all lumped together under the trans umbrella so the group would be mixed? Is anyone looking after the needs of trans men?

I did want to join to local WI but as it's open to men then that's not for me.

Men’s Sheds is a group that seems to do good work around reducing isolation and improving mental health for men:

menssheds.org.uk/

A quick look at their website doesn’t give entry criteria, but it does say that they’re a loose federation of Sheds and also that some include women.

And yes, it does seem like Men’s Sheds simply hasn’t had to think about the issue as it would certainly have done were it a women’s organisation.

Women calling themselves male identified should start invading men's spaces. That would get more men fighting back with us.

It does illustrate that men's single-sex spaces are under no threat

Men’s spaces are under ‘threat’ from a different direction. There were plenty of clubs i that were men only, but most have been persuaded to allow women. I was never sure that this was wise at the time it was happening - I always believed that sometimes sex-specific spaces were a good thing.

Mens spaces have not been under threat from a different direction - they have had to comply wih the Equality Act. There are still men only clubs for example.

If transwomen can have access to women spaces and threaten action if they don't then transmen have equal access to mens spaces. That includes any woman who feels like a man that day. As usual women are expected to be nice and budge up but we must leave the mens spaces alone The situation at the Hampstead pools was disgraceful and I was surprised that the group didn't take that situation further.

I have long since thought that if this situation continues then women, en masse, need to start using mens spaces very proactively. I can guarantee there would be a national outcry.

@aliasundercover

It does illustrate that men's single-sex spaces are under no threat

Men’s spaces are under ‘threat’ from a different direction. There were plenty of clubs i that were men only, but most have been persuaded to allow women. I was never sure that this was wise at the time it was happening - I always believed that sometimes sex-specific spaces were a good thing.

The problem with a lot of men only clubs was the power imbalance. Keeping women out meant they were excluded from important decisions they were an old boys network.

I do think men need single sex spaces for emotional support or to share interests.

I don't think it's fair, however tempting, to barge in on vulnerable men who need peer support to make a point.

I don't think it's fair, however tempting, to barge in on vulnerable men who need peer support to make a point. This.

I think it's counterproductive to sabotage anything that counters toxic masculinity. Often, when men want access to women's stuff, they get told 'do your OWN support!' So, we shouldn't undermine them doing that. Good on these men.

But the men invading our spaces? They can fuck off.

@aliasundercover

It does illustrate that men's single-sex spaces are under no threat

Men’s spaces are under ‘threat’ from a different direction. There were plenty of clubs i that were men only, but most have been persuaded to allow women. I was never sure that this was wise at the time it was happening - I always believed that sometimes sex-specific spaces were a good thing.

Yes, that's true. St Andrew's Golf Club rings a bell in that regard.

The situation at the Hampstead pools was disgraceful and I was surprised that the group didn't take that situation further.

The Man Friday group doesn't exist any more but there's nothing to stop anyone else taking it further.

Two wrongs don't make a right. The WI should not be open to men.

Where I live there are two men’s groups..one social and one more for discussion /support. I suspect that they might accept a transman , but actually they do good stuff in a small community for the men involved. I fully support their right to be men only. Meanwhile lesbians are told we shouldn’t be having separate events from the bigger women’s networks...despite our stating that all women were welcome..

I’m seeing lots of men’s mental health schemes emerging such as Men’s Walks, Men’s Sheds etc...it’s good that men’s mental health needs are being addressed but yes, the double standard grates on me too.

Women calling themselves male identified should start invading men's spaces. That would get more men fighting back with us

Ha ha. I'd love that. They wouldn't fight with us though. They'd see us as the enemy and their space as sacred.

Funny how men's only spaces are mostly ones of power and privilege where cigars are smoked, whisky is drunk and decisions are made amongst men - or perhaps women are there for entertainment and as wank-fodder whereas women's spaces are one's of vulnerability where women have fled from men.

Funny how only one of these sex-based spaces is open to invasion.

. Meanwhile lesbians are told we shouldn’t be having separate events from the bigger women’s networks...despite our stating that all women were welcome..

Who is saying this? Women in the traditional sense or others? I'm confused because separate lesbian spaces were always accepted in the second-wave.

There does seem to be a huge misconception around man clubs and a seeming need to destroy them. I belong to Andys Man Club and it does a huge amount of good its definitely not about power and privilege. I have no idea if it allows trans men although going by the general attitude if a trans man went along and simply joined in I'm not sure it would be a problem, if someone went and kicked up a fuss at lot of us probably just stop going.