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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Should Muslim women be forced to give beauty treatments to males?

329 replies

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 22/05/2021 08:59

"Unisex salon stand by their decision to REJECT a gender-fluid singer from a nail appointment - because they thought they were 'a man' so Muslim beautician objected"

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-9601197/Nail-salon-refuse-manicure-gender-fluid-singer-beautician-Muslim.html

OP posts:
Karwomannghia · 22/05/2021 11:10

There are an awful lot of assumptions being made about Muslim women here-
She can’t touch men, she doesn’t work on her period, she even has an abusive husband.

bonfireheart · 22/05/2021 11:11

It seems like he/she/they booked using Treatwell. I have used treatwell lots of times. It clearly states when a service is for women only. When you click to pay it reminds you again "x beautician only does x treatment on women" and they you pay if you wish to proceed. Which means he/she/they will have known before booking so makes me wonder... also considering their social media profile and how important their appearance to them, am surprised he/she/they were booking to get their nails done in a salon they didn't know about, had been to before and tbh looks a bit grubby from the pics. Again makes me wonder if this was done on purpose... why when their name is Andrea would salon ring to confirm their gender? Am assuming he/she/they did something to alert them to their gender on purpose...

TedImgoingmad · 22/05/2021 11:11

@Artichokeleaves

Women have boundaries that men don't experience.

It does not matter whether personally you don't agree with religion or think women should be allowed to enact ones you personally see as misogynistic. It's a fundamental naivety to the reality of those women and it's a bit colonialist really to see western white culture as superior and demand that people just get with your obviously better and more righteous way of life. This seems to me a really unpleasant attitude.

Those women are not all going to abandon their religion, culture, family, friends, and deal with all the fall out of that, because someone with no clue about their lives tell them to. Those religions and cultures are not all going to change by next week or next year either.

So do we abandon some women to not being able to work in their qualified field, or to have equal access to society, because their personal boundaries and protected characteristics are currently not helpful to those who see the shoehorning of male people into female spaces as the only protected characteristic that matters?

If we're going to respect that some male people wish to access women's single sex spaces because of their feelings, needs, identity, personal culture and beliefs, then those male people in turn need to respect those exact same things in some female people who cannot share a space with them. And we need to come up with solutions that work for all which is going to be accepting that sometimes some women say no, and cannot put a male born person's needs above their own.

Brilliantly well said.
OverTheRubicon · 22/05/2021 11:11

It does not matter whether personally you don't agree with religion or think women should be allowed to enact ones you personally see as misogynistic. It's a fundamental naivety to the reality of those women and it's a bit colonialist really to see western white culture as superior and demand that people just get with your obviously better and more righteous way of life. This seems to me a really unpleasant attitude.

And is it also a bit colonialist when people of other religions refuse to serve gay people, for example? Or when men won't sit next to women on flights?

nauticant · 22/05/2021 11:11

"He/she/they"
So putting that in my work email signature.

How about "He: for pay/she: for the Equality Act and general use/they: if that's your preference"?

Hallyup6 · 22/05/2021 11:12

Gender fluid? So only female when he feels like it? Get lost.

The beautician's services clearly imply women only. Presumably the Muslim woman took the job in the basis she would only be providing treatment to other women. This is clearly a bloke with a bloody moustache. He deserves to have his appointment cancelled.

BrizzleGirl · 22/05/2021 11:12

@Nancylovesthecock

How on earth would someone know if someone was 'gender fluid'? Unless they were a total bore and banging on about it at every opportunity?
The same way you know someone is vegan. They tell you ... immediately.
AlfonsoTheTerrible · 22/05/2021 11:13

@InTheHeatOfTheSun - your comment intrigued me so I looked up Di Giovanni's web site - andreadigiovanni.it/about/.

Di Giovanni refers to himself as "him", "his" and "he".

Jaxhog · 22/05/2021 11:13

It's a matter of mutual respect. If a gender-fluid or Trans person wishes to be respected for their beliefs, they also need to respect a Muslim woman's belief too.

TedImgoingmad · 22/05/2021 11:14

why when their name is Andrea would salon ring to confirm their gender?

It's a name used by both sexes, but traditionally a male name, the Latin form of Andrew, I believe, and literally means "manly".

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 22/05/2021 11:21

The salon’s website specifies the nail clinician works with women only. This asshat it trying to force a woman to touch him when she objects.

I do hope that this individual hasn't deliberately targeted this particular salon and woman in order to generate outrage, because that would be the epitome of punching down.

OP posts:
AlfonsoTheTerrible · 22/05/2021 11:21

I just checked the Treatwell site - Style Studio list the manicures as being "ladies". I didn't book a treatment but I will take the comment by @bonfireheart to be accurate.

Clymene · 22/05/2021 11:21

Isn't this how that burger person got famous? Complained to national media about not being allowed in the women's changing rooms in topshop?

God these people are tedious bullies.

InTheHeatOfTheSun · 22/05/2021 11:22

[quote AlfonsoTheTerrible]@InTheHeatOfTheSun - your comment intrigued me so I looked up Di Giovanni's web site - andreadigiovanni.it/about/.

Di Giovanni refers to himself as "him", "his" and "he".[/quote]
He does indeed. A bit less fluid on his website.

Artichokeleaves · 22/05/2021 11:22

And is it also a bit colonialist when people of other religions refuse to serve gay people, for example? Or when men won't sit next to women on flights?

Well no, it wouldn't be would it? Confused

Because they're stating their own personal boundaries based on their culture, not demanding that everyone else abandons their own beliefs and culture and does it too because their way is the superior and right one.

You might not agree with what that person is saying or the values they're demonstrating. You might think they're an unpleasant person. But there's a reason why these things are protected characteristics and why tolerance is needed, with acceptance that people have their boundaries in different places for different reasons. And I say that as a lesbian, to whom homophobia isn't a theoretical thing.

PronounssheRa · 22/05/2021 11:23

Di Giovanni refers to himself as "him", "his" and "he".

It's a power play, targeting a single sex service, knowing they would be refused and its all publicity for him/her/they

Puntastic · 22/05/2021 11:25

@AlfonsoTheTerrible

I just checked the Treatwell site - Style Studio list the manicures as being "ladies". I didn't book a treatment but I will take the comment by *@bonfireheart* to be accurate.
They may well have changed it since.
Tibtom · 22/05/2021 11:25

@Pagwatch

Tibtom

wait, are you saying that the point of sex being a protected characteristic is so that men can insist upon their right to use female only spaces or provisions?

Because i think the point of sex being protected is entirely to allow women to provide female only spaces.

I think im misunderstanding your point. Is that what you are saying - that they can not deny him a manicure because they cannot refuse to touch a man even if the 'spa' services are female only - because his sex is protected ?

If their service meets the criteria for a single sex space then they can deny him service because his belief that he is a woman does not trump the need to provide a single sex space to overcome sex discrimination that would occur if only mixed sex services were offered.

If it is not a single sex space then the religious belief of an employee does not allow them to discriminate on the basis of sex.

RoyalCorgi · 22/05/2021 11:30

Just reading a bit more about when beauticians can refuse to serve someone of the opposite sex.

www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/525230/response/1298678/attach/html/10/WhatEqualityMeansForYourBusiness%20CombinedDocs%20Redacted.pdf.html

This says:

You are allowed to provide separate services for men and women where providing a joint service (ie one where men and women are provided with exactly the same service) would not be as effective. You are also allowed to provide separate services for men and women in different ways or to a different level where:
• providing a joint service would not be as effective, and
• the extent to which the service is required by one sex makes it not reasonably practicable to provide the service except in the different ways or to the different level.
In each case, you need to be able to objectively justify what you are doing.

You are allowed to provide single-sex services (services just for men or just for women)
where this is objectively justified and:
• only men or only women require the service, or
• there is joint provision for both sexes but that is not enough on its own, or
• if the service were provided for men and women jointly, it would not be as effective
and the extent to which each sex requires the service makes it not reasonably practicable to provide separate services for each sex because of the extent to which the service is required by persons of each sex, or
• the services are provided in a hospital or other place where users need special care,
supervision or attention (or in parts of such an establishment), or
• the services may be used by more than one person at the same time and a woman
might reasonably object to the presence of a man (or vice versa), or
• the services may involve physical contact between a user and someone else and that other person may reasonably object if the user is of the opposite sex.

So this case would surely be covered by the physical contact element, though most people if not religious would probably be OK with touching the hands of someone of the opposite sex.

MissBarbary · 22/05/2021 11:34

@TedImgoingmad

why when their name is Andrea would salon ring to confirm their gender?

It's a name used by both sexes, but traditionally a male name, the Latin form of Andrew, I believe, and literally means "manly".

Andrea is Italian. Andrea is a man's name in Italy.
TedImgoingmad · 22/05/2021 11:34

Andrea's website says this:

His individual flair and charisma caught the eye of Drag Race superstar Ru Paul, who has supported him openly on Twitter. This became a significant milestone for Andrea, who felt even more enabled to push the boundaries of a 'masculine' society and embrace his individuality.

Pushing the boundaries of masculine society. Brilliant. What went wrong? Or is it just the non binary bandwagon everyone seems to be jumping on? At some point, none of them are going to be special anymore.

AlfonsoTheTerrible · 22/05/2021 11:36

@Puntastic - unless Treatwell - Style Studio changed the listing in the last few seconds, on the Treatwell site it states "ladies" under manicures.

On the Style Studio site, it does not specify. It lists "Gents" as a separate category from "manicures and pedicures" and under this section lists only "gents - styling".

This is crucial because if Di Giovanni booked through Treatwell and not directly through the salon, he would have known. But what is clear is that Di Giovanni complained to Treatwell.

MissBarbary · 22/05/2021 11:38

And is it also a bit colonialist when people of other religions refuse to serve gay people, for example? Or when men won't sit next to women on flights?

Well no, it wouldn't be would it?

Because they're stating their own personal boundaries based on their culture, not demanding that everyone else abandons their own beliefs and culture and does it too because their way is the superior and right one

Sorry, but are you actually defending men who refuse to sit beside women on airplanes?

TedImgoingmad · 22/05/2021 11:38

Andrea is Italian. Andrea is a man's name in Italy.

Which part of my post didn't cover that?

Tibtom · 22/05/2021 11:39

the services may involve physical contact between a user and someone else and that other person may reasonably object if the user is of the opposite sex.

Ok. That would seem to cover this situation