If only women would change they would be successful

[FFSFFSFFS]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57060761

CEO Secrets: 'Perfectionism can hold women back

Sure a bit on how really it would be great if the toxic masculine culture changed - but we all know that what's really holding back women is themselves.

And imagine what would happen to the business world if men changed a bit themselves and tried to get things right just a wee bit more...

I hate this idea that because men hold positions of power, any quality associated with being female is inherently inferior.

Fed up of people hunting around for explanations as to why women don't do as well, that miss out the root cause (patriarchy)

Exactly.

Asking for help, checking work are all acknowledged as ways of facilitating conversations where you learn a little and discover other ways of working. Theres a couple of guys, that while they go away and do the task on their own end up in knowledge silos and no one knows the details of what they are doing.

Yes, this is also a problem - secret information that's being hoarded to keep a person appearing valuable/give them first dibs on certain jobs.

Knowledge sharing and asking questions of subject experts understanding others tasks is good, BUT, I don't mean that kind of thing - I mean asking me rather than going and looking at the wiki (the work equivalent of ex asking me what the time was, rather than reaching into his pocket and looking at his own phone). If you don't know how to do something, that is fine, but please at least have a go on your own, then check with me after if it's still not obvious.

Yes it's patriarchy but we need to acknowledge how we participate in it to change it.

@chocolatesweets - not sure I understand your point?

Yes, it's patriarchy. What does that even mean? The article explains that women are perfectionists because so many pressures are placed on them. We need to be perfect at work, AND in the home/with the kids. Men aren't expected to do both.

@kotatsu that what I mean - they're not always after the answer. They're maybe hoping you can add detail to it so they can find out what they don't know. There might be a better way to approach their problem or a completely different tool they can use, or you could point then I'm the direction of someone that's done something similar and another member of staff can help - giving that member of staff a little more experience in communication too!

I always assume these things are conversation starters - people (not limited to men or women) do this in everyday conversation. I don't ask someone how they got to work because I want a breakdown of their commute - I'm allowing them to angle a quip, incident or reason and engage in small talk.
You find out the things,and i hate to quote Rumseld, but you find it the things that you didn't know, that you didn't know.

@chocolatesweets - it means that the system is built by men for men and my point is that the reason why women don't get ahead is not because women need to change.

Women don't not get ahead because they are perfectionists. They don't get ahead because they are not men.

The answer is not for women to change. But for the system and men to change.

Agree FFS and articles like this don't help because they give the illusion that women can do better if they change to be more like men. See also "lean in".

But you can't change other people. All you can change is yourself. Resist

But you can't change other people. All you can change is yourself.
That's true in a one to one interaction. But the solution to the systematic discrimination against women should not be for those individual women to change.
In any case, historically when women have changed to be more like men the goalposts move and they are penalised for it.
Perfectionism is not seen as a weakness when men display it. Neither is assertiveness. Or ambition. All these things are things women are told will hold them back

Seems like a good time to watch this again

Perfectionism is a negative trait.

This article does not acknowledge that women who behave in the same way as men are not perceived in the same way as men. Women are perfectionists because they know that even the slightest error will be forever held against them. A man who asks for a raise is a go-getter; a woman who asks for a raise is uppity. Wasn't there a famous case in the US where a woman who worked for PWC, and who was brilliant at her job, discovered that she had been refused a partnership precisely because behaviour that was deemed desirable in male employees was considered off-putting in a woman? You can bet your ass any woman who isn't a perfectionist is seen as slapdash and lazy.

I work in a male dominated area and if I make one tiny mistake I’m picked up on it whereas the men aren’t so I have to be perfectionist.

If I apply for a job where there’s a single ‘nice to have but not compulsory’ requirement I can’t tick off that is given as the reason why the job is given to a man with half the requirements (and more than once they have been shocked to get the job over me). I’ve taken to checking the job role carefully and still they state something not part of the role and not brought up in the interview as the reason why I didn’t get the job even though it’s something I could do. So the idea of applying for jobs where I have a number of gaps is risible.

If I communicate like the men I’m regarded as aggressive so I have to find this weird balance of performing enough femininity so I don't get called aggressive but not so much that I draw too much attention to the fact I’m female.

I regret optimistically thinking things would improve as 3 decades later it’s worse than it was when I started.

To be honest I think it’s right- it’s drummed into young girls to act a certain way- and you grow up like that not knowing any difference.

More women are people pleasers than men due to this.

Women would be better off being a bit more assertive, less striving to give every ounce of themselves for it and being more upfront with pay rises.

I didn’t even know men went for jobs they are not massively qualified for, as it would not occur to me to even attempt to go for a job I wasn’t well qualified for. Again, that’s a problem with me and feel that it’s due to me being female.

Because women are seen as being perfectionist. Women are seen as being feminine. That’s the problem.

Also a man wouldn’t have put up with that shit for 3 decades.

Males and females are different, but I don’t think it would be bad women being a bit more like the males.

I think men go for jobs for which they are under-qualified knowing that it will be permissible for them to delegate and pass work onto female juniors. Again, a woman is not going to get away with that kind of behaviour.

A man who asks for a raise is a go-getter; a woman who asks for a raise is uppity.

This is bizzare. I've never heard a scenario where words like this are used in real life.

Women have changed. 100 years ago we had 14 kids, did the washing on Monday or had a fainting couch if posh.

What's wrong with changing?

@Gymsmile21 - totes - men are doing a cracking job - women could all learn a lot from them.

Hope you all heard that ladies - if you just make some changes you too can get ahead just like a man.

Women have changed but the liberal feminist agenda of changing individual women's attitudes rather than bringing about systemic change just doesn't work. A woman who knows her organisation's culture will know exactly how her request for a pay rise will be received. I also think employers are well aware of the precarious nature of female employment. A working mother whose request for more money or a promotion may be seen as a less than desirable employee by other companies and therefore has less leverage. Older female employees aren't distinguished and experienced, they are past it. Not that long ago a woman I know discovered the man immediately junior to her was getting paid more. She was told he had a wife and children to support and needed the money more. Her boss was quite aggrieved that she expected more money. Didn't Suzanne Moore also say that her initial request for a rise at The Guardian was met with anger, even though she had just won a prestigious journalism award?

@Cleanandpress

A man who asks for a raise is a go-getter; a woman who asks for a raise is uppity.

This is bizzare. I've never heard a scenario where words like this are used in real life.

Women have changed. 100 years ago we had 14 kids, did the washing on Monday or had a fainting couch if posh.

What's wrong with changing?

Changing how?

What is it, specifically, you think women should change? Do you want us to do things the way men do them (which isn't working very well for society), or do you want us to do things differently to men?

@EsmaCannonball - and that's the point that some posters on this thread seem to be missing.

The whole system is built on the male experience and approach.

In particular in the world of work its built on an experience where having and looking after children and domestic duties is not a significant a role. It is also based on a particular view on male and female relationships and roles.

Women changing to fit in more with this system which is not built for and does not account for them will not change the inherent problems.

I also reiterate my point that men are fucking things up right, left and centre. I'm seeing lots of behaviour that really shouldn't be asprirational

Why can't a woman be more like a man?
Men are so honest, so thoroughly square;
Eternally noble, historically fair.
Who, when you win, will always give your back a pat.
Why can't a woman be like that?

Why does every one do what the others do?
Can't a woman learn to use her head?
Why do they do everything their mothers do?
Why don't they grow up, well, like their father instead?

I've just been reminded of a scene in Mad Men where Peggy talks to a client from Heinz Baked Beans in exactly the same way that Don Draper talks to clients, but because she's a woman, instead of being impressed and won over, the client feels insulted and angry. Women learn that the rules aren't the same for us. There's so much we can't get away with.