If only women would change they would be successful

[FFSFFSFFS]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-57060761

CEO Secrets: 'Perfectionism can hold women back

Sure a bit on how really it would be great if the toxic masculine culture changed - but we all know that what's really holding back women is themselves.

And imagine what would happen to the business world if men changed a bit themselves and tried to get things right just a wee bit more...

I don't know. I don't think that every article about women has to rip into toxic masculinity or what men need to do differently.

I had not ever thought about perfectionism holding women back, it's not something I suffer from personally and the idea of being a CEO or even an EO sound horrible to me.

But I did for years work in a male dominated and very masculine sector, and at a certain point I noticed that a more typically feminine communication style was not working in some situations. So I made an effort to be aware of that and be more assertive when I thought it would be useful.

You see quite often that women are less likely than men to apply for jobs they don't have all the qualifications for, or ask for raises. I really don't think there is anything wrong with making women aware that they might not get jobs they would be good at, or raises they deserve, because of that, or helping them become comfortable with doing those things.

I don't think that every article about women has to rip into toxic masculinity or what men need to do differently.

This is possibly better established in some areas than others although toxic masculinity is part of the higher order problem of the patriarchy. In some STEM, it's still a radical notion that it would be better to fix the leaky pipe (the system) than to insist on changing the water (aka - critiquing that by and large all women are the 'wrong sort of women').

But it's feasible that 'we need to change this oppressive patriarchy' is probably no more popular as a trope than toxic masculinity so - as you were.

"You see quite often that women are less likely than men to apply for jobs they don't have all the qualifications for, or ask for raises. I really don't think there is anything wrong with making women aware that they might not get jobs they would be good at, or raises they deserve, because of that, or helping them become comfortable with doing those things."

There has actually been quite a bit of more recent research that suggests women do ask for rises but don't get them as often: hbr.org/2018/06/research-women-ask-for-raises-as-often-as-men-but-are-less-likely-to-get-them

And also that women asking to be paid more are judged more harshly than men asking the same, i.e. that if women are more reluctant it's probably because they're rightly thinking they'll be disliked for doing so. www.cnbc.com/2013/11/27/for-women-asking-for-a-raise-is-damned-if-you-do-or-dont.html

But I did for years work in a male dominated and very masculine sector, and at a certain point I noticed that a more typically feminine communication style was not working in some situations. So I made an effort to be aware of that and be more assertive when I thought it would be useful

Well but that's kinda my point. The men behaved in a particular way, a woman behaved in a different way and it was more effective to change her behaviour to behave like the men. This doesn't mean that the way the men communicate is inherently better - in fact I'd hazard a guess that it was probably dysfunctional in all sorts of way.

My point is that the message that women need to change their behaviour to be more like men and then they'll get ahead is very annoying.

And ignores the total shit show that men are currently making of organisational behavioural paradigms across the world...

It ignores why women are like that
They wouldn't have to change if that behaviour hadn't been trained into them in the first place

""I used to compare myself a lot to my older brother growing up. If he failed it wouldn't bother him, he would just dust himself off, get up and try again.
"But I would dwell on failure. It would bother me, it would eat away at me. It's a different type of psyche. I found it harder emotionally to move on."
I think it's a mistake to compare ourselves to brothers, cousins, fathers and husbands. Even as children, they have completely different expectations and permissions from other people and society at large. For example, the 'boys will be boys' bias allows them to mess around and probably screw up more than girls can; that in turn will enable them to take more risks and brush off 'failures'.
However, in this case it sounds like it's more his and her personalities. I have kids of both flavours and they don't exhibit "typical" behaviour in various situations.

My point is that the message that women need to change their behaviour to be more like men and then they'll get ahead is very annoying

It is.

But I find it more annoying that life outside the home is built around men, by men, for men.

I have worked in a factory that had 300 men on the shift and 8 women . I can’t praise the men highly enough . I was a very slim , good looking young woman in my early teens and twenties ....... how time marches on . I was treated with respect, never feeling a less person just one of the gang .
I’ve also worked in a men’s cat B prison and I was treated with respect . I

"They wouldn't have to change if that behaviour hadn't been trained into them in the first place."

This is why it's just such an annoying thing to be told, isn't it. I know I've been trained by society to support others, to try to be perfect and easy to get on with, to take shit from people because when I hit back everyone's like "ooooh! someone's cross" when I know if I were a man it'd be taken seriously, and so on. To share credit. And then I fail to get promoted because in the job interviews I feel and obviously look acutely awkward about taking the credit for things and not being modest/realistic. Big talk pays, but very few women I know have felt able to develop this "skill".

V pleased that was your experience @Homemadesoupmmmmm. I used to work in a mostly male workplace and had lots of lovely and respectful colleagues, and then it turned out half of them were passing round a picture someone had taken looking down my top, and another one tried to convince me the only way to get on in my career was to have sex with him.

I agree that there is an element of women have been trained to behave in certain ways.

But my point is also that all of these trained behaviours are not bad.

In this case my point would be well maybe men need to be a little bit more perfectionist and stop being so happy to fail all the time.

Cause I am seeing a shit tonne of men failing all over the place. And rather than celebrate that I'd quite like to see them try a bit harder to get things right more and be just a tad more perfectionist.

@FFSFFSFFS

But I did for years work in a male dominated and very masculine sector, and at a certain point I noticed that a more typically feminine communication style was not working in some situations. So I made an effort to be aware of that and be more assertive when I thought it would be useful

Well but that's kinda my point. The men behaved in a particular way, a woman behaved in a different way and it was more effective to change her behaviour to behave like the men. This doesn't mean that the way the men communicate is inherently better - in fact I'd hazard a guess that it was probably dysfunctional in all sorts of way.

My point is that the message that women need to change their behaviour to be more like men and then they'll get ahead is very annoying.

And ignores the total shit show that men are currently making of organisational behavioural paradigms across the world...

There was nothing wrong with the way the men communicated, nor was it better, it was just different. It tended to be much more direct which made sense in that environment.

People in general communicate better if they are aware of their audience. That's true whether you are a woman in an organisation that's 90% men, or a man in an organisation that's 90% female. Trying to convince the majority of people in either scenario to change their communication approach, when there is really nothing wrong with it, is never going to be effective. Individuals being aware of the specific audience they are addressing at a particular moment and pitching their language and approach to them is something we can each control and it's a flexible tool for a lot of different situations.

@FFSFFSFFS

I agree that there is an element of women have been trained to behave in certain ways.

But my point is also that all of these trained behaviours are not bad.

In this case my point would be well maybe men need to be a little bit more perfectionist and stop being so happy to fail all the time.

Cause I am seeing a shit tonne of men failing all over the place. And rather than celebrate that I'd quite like to see them try a bit harder to get things right more and be just a tad more perfectionist.

This. Just this. So perfectly expressed.

I’m probably not getting this at all. The men that I have worked with have always been nothing but respectful. I have worked from Barnsley to Sittingbourne and I have never come across the things you are all describing.

@Homemadesoupmmmmm

I’m probably not getting this at all. The men that I have worked with have always been nothing but respectful. I have worked from Barnsley to Sittingbourne and I have never come across the things you are all describing.

Why do you think that is? Do you think they maybe left you out of some of it?

Men are people , I respect them and they respect me.

I last worked in a men’s cat B prison and I never felt the things that are described on this thread. Maybe the problem is with you.

100%. We try and be perfect everywhere. We don't want to be late to work because child a forgot his homework. But we also get slated if child a forgot his homework. We get slated from every angle. Men just go to work. We don't hold them responsible for anything outside that.

I’m on the wrong thread. Why do you put up with such crap ?

Cause I am seeing a shit tonne of men failing all over the place. And rather than celebrate that I'd quite like to see them try a bit harder to get things right more and be just a tad more perfectionist.

Yes. Although there's perhaps a happy medium that could be reached where women try a bit less hard, and men pull their socks up (I work with only men at the moment. None of them actually complete a task alone, they either ask me things, or miss something, or expect me to check their work - even when we're all on a level. When we had another woman, I could ask her to do something, and she'd come back when she was done - finding things out on her own unless she really couldn't)

@chocolatesweets

100%. We try and be perfect everywhere. We don't want to be late to work because child a forgot his homework. But we also get slated if child a forgot his homework. We get slated from every angle. Men just go to work. We don't hold them responsible for anything outside that.

^^ Definitely this. They just get to leave the house and go to work. It's their default occupation (in the broader sense of the word)

I agree OP. Why are we always asking women to change. If they're are so many women who are perfectionists and do jobs to a standard of excellence, why isn't that shining a spotlight on the many mediocre men who hold high paying jobs way beyond what they ought to on merit.

"None of them actually complete a task alone, they either ask me things, or miss something, or expect me to check their work - even when we're all on a level. When we had another woman, I could ask her to do something, and she'd come back when she was done - finding things out on her own unless she really couldn't)"

I think this is a problem. I work in a really male dominated environment (banking + IT) and there's a huge focus on collaboration and knowledge building.
Asking for help, checking work are all acknowledged as ways of facilitating conversations where you learn a little and discover other ways of working. Theres a couple of guys, that while they go away and do the task on their own end up in knowledge silos and no one knows the details of what they are doing.
We actively follow a methodology where were encouraged to compete small bits of work quickly and gather feedback and iterating Rather than the converse.
I was also pulled up when I started for not pushing someone on a potential mistake, I dropped the argument rather than explaining why, I was tired at the time and wanted to get in with other things. Speaking up and pointing out mistakes is seen as beneficial for the other person, as they are learning. I don't know if this is "assertiveness" as when I see it described in women's related content it seems a bit "go for it" but without justificatin?

The worst perfectionists I know are men. I think perfectionism is a human failing not a female one.
Fed up of people hunting around for explanations as to why women don't do as well, that miss out the root cause (patriarchy)
Also I don't like that when they feature a woman who has done well, it's like she has the secret to how to woman right. Honestly.

I actually doubt that is the CEOs main point but its how the journalist chose to focus the article

Also, research shows women get vague feedback in performance reviews
hbr.org/2016/04/research-vague-feedback-is-holding-women-back

Is it any surprise that repeated "do your job better for the reward (promotion, payrise etc)" could result in anxiety and perfectionism?

Cause I am seeing a shit tonne of men failing all over the place. And rather than celebrate that I'd quite like to see them try a bit harder to get things right more and be just a tad more perfectionist.

Yes, completely agree.