Feminist pregnancy

[Orangepen13]

Hi,

First post here! I’m pregnant with my first child and am becoming more and more aware of the feminist ideals forced upon me - from pain-medication free labour, the parenting books available (“mummy makes”?!!), work expectations... the list goes on.

I’ve not been completely unaware of this, and very much hold the belief that a lot of gender inequality in our society comes from unpaid labour. Me and my partner are taking shared leave and the expectation is that we will be equal parts of the child’s care. However I have no doubt that this will be a battle!

I’m struggling to find like minded parents. When I mention shared leave to my friends/colleagues I get very quizzical looks and asked to explain myself. No one of my friends seems to talk about the unreasonable demands on women during pregnancy and labour, and whilst I do hear about unreasonable demands on childcare, no one seems to talk about challenging this.

I’m wondering if anyone has come across any groups, parenting books, parenting courses (etc.) that advocate a feminist stance to unpaid care?

I feel very much like an odd one out, and it’s hard to challenge all the bull with just one set of eyes!

Thanks!

@risefromyourgrave

I have always wondered why a pain medication free labour is something to strive for, you don’t win any prizes for it!

An epidural free labour is something I strived for as you’re more likely to require an instrumental delivery with an epidural and having had one of those I never ever want another!

Look at Milli Hill’s books.

I gave birth 5 weeks ago and found her books very helpful.

Should have said my most recent birth was just using gas and air and the recovery has been incredibly quick compared to my shit show of an instrumental delivery.

I’m sure lots of other mums feel the way you do, just try talking about it.
I had an open mind towards epidurals, and a lot of people I knew were very anti-pain med in the discussion of my labour. I remembered watching the “Childbirth” episode of ‘Sex, Explained’ on Netflix and one of the people on there talked about how women are generally expected to suffer giving birth. That definitely made me think.

I ended up getting an epidural and I’m so glad I did. I think I was quite lucky because it made me numb but not too numb and I didn’t need any assistance.

I've been thinking about this recently, as I'm currently pregnant for the second time. I've found I had to cut quite a few people out of my life, honestly, when they couldn't respect that I didn't want to take on the whole mental workload of parenting. There is so much pressure to do it all, it takes quite a strong belief to continually fight against it. My nct group wouldn't let my partner and I share responsibility, for example, insisting "the women do the organising" and so we left. I also realised that some women find the idea of dads being involved quite personally offensive, for whatever reason (normally when their own partners are a bit useless, imo), and would try and exclude my partner at parenting groups. We now both work 4 days a week, and I still shunt organisational duties to him regularly to even things out. I am dreading maternity leave though, as it's far harder not to take all the responsibility when the other person is working.

A good article here summarising the state of play regarding contemporary attitudes to motherhood, concluding with the wise thought that, 'Motherhood is feminism's unfinished business.'

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/may/18/parent-trap-why-the-cult-of-the-perfect-mother-has-to-end?fbclid=IwAR1i1RmhVJH9hHGmf7r9vTDvV_jIDoBgWXHhR1cVb0pntoI-5Jw9AJF4xIA

Re pain free birth, you do whatever is best for you. But I agree with Sexnotgender... My Recovery from my birth with just gas and air was so much quicker than where I had epidural that ended in forceps.

@Mylittlepony374

Re pain free birth, you do whatever is best for you. But I agree with Sexnotgender... My Recovery from my birth with just gas and air was so much quicker than where I had epidural that ended in forceps.

The choices need to 100% be available to all women and the care must be woman focused. However the consequences of decisions also needs to be clearly explained to women. I found the positive birth company and Milli Hill both incredibly useful.

Even something as seemingly innocuous as artificially breaking waters or a sweep can end up in a cascade of interventions.

My birth plan was essentially leave me the fuck alone. I had an incredibly positive birth this time and honestly would do it again tomorrow.

For me, I love my job and I love my role in life and maybe I will love being a mum more than that. But I would like the option of being able to keep the balance open - which it sounds like some people have managed.

It is perfectly possible to do OP, but you need support so do reach out to family and friends if you can too. I firmly buy into "it takes a village". I wouldn't have been able to manage without the support of Mum friends I've made through classes and school, my family are far away. You can't do it all and some things will have to give so go easy on yourself. It's worth preparing for breastfeeding to be a time when baby is very much dependent on you if that's what you are planning to do. I think the biggest shock for me was that in my mind this was going to be truly 50/50 and in reality it doesn't work like that in the first six months to a year when baby needs you so much.

@risefromyourgrave

I have always wondered why a pain medication free labour is something to strive for, you don’t win any prizes for it!

A lot of women (like myself and PP have mentioned) opt for a epidural, etc free birth to prevent the risk of need for intervention and for a speedier recovery with little risk of long term after effects.

This rhetroric about you "don't win any prizes for it" needs to stop. As empowering as my labour was, I didn't do it for the kudos. I just figured I'd rather the temporary pain and have a better chance of coming out of it unscathed (e.g. no forceps, emergency c-section).

It's every woman's personal choice and the implication one choice is about the desire to be praised is not cool.

Another recommendation for Milli Hill

www.millihill.co.uk/

@HecatesCatsInFancyHats

For me, I love my job and I love my role in life and maybe I will love being a mum more than that. But I would like the option of being able to keep the balance open - which it sounds like some people have managed.

It is perfectly possible to do OP, but you need support so do reach out to family and friends if you can too. I firmly buy into "it takes a village". I wouldn't have been able to manage without the support of Mum friends I've made through classes and school, my family are far away. You can't do it all and some things will have to give so go easy on yourself. It's worth preparing for breastfeeding to be a time when baby is very much dependent on you if that's what you are planning to do. I think the biggest shock for me was that in my mind this was going to be truly 50/50 and in reality it doesn't work like that in the first six months to a year when baby needs you so much.

Absolutely. I wrote a long post saying basically this but it was unclear and ramble so I didn't share it. This is much clearer. I breastfed both mine, am so glad I did, but it was exhausting and definitely impacted on our ability to share the load, despite both our best efforts.

Be aware that all the best theories come to naught when hormones are in on the act!

It's great to have an ideal that you are aiming for, and yours is a good one. You may find though that however rational your plan is, you need some wriggle room for birth injuries and hormone soup! Be prepared to be flexible, your needs may not be quite what you imagine they will be. Your DP a will need to care for you as well as the DC at times, and you may need to prioritise your need to parent over his, at times.

Two births first at hospital, second at home. I recommend home birth if you are not too far from a hospital in case of emergencies. It was so much easy to be at home.

Equal leave is fine and would help the DP is around to look after the 2 of you at first, but be flexible if you need more leave than DP as your body will be put through much more than his and you will need plenty of time to restore your energies. The 40 days of old times seem quite reasonable!

Best of luck!

No one of my friends seems to talk about the unreasonable demands on women during pregnancy and labour, and whilst I do hear about unreasonable demands on childcare, no one seems to talk about challenging this.
Can you elaborate on what these demands are and who is imposing them on you?
I'm confused as to what you're feeling so oppressed by.

In my opinion the best laid plans don't survive contact with the enemy. Pregnancy, birth and post-natal period have so many unforeseen complications that you should do whatever is best for you in that moment. Don't let outside judgements influence you... it's about you, your partner and your baby. If that ends up being 'patriarchal' but it works best for you then everyone else can shove their opinions where the sun don't shine. You don't need pressure to conform or 'be perfect' on top of everything else you will be going through. Especially as nobody can agree what being perfect means anyway!

Best advice I ever heard about parenting was this.

50/50 parenting doesn't mean doing half of every job.

I've met so many women who feel that to achieve 50/50 they have to give up things that mean something to them as women. You don't.

It was important to me that I breastfed. That meant my DH never gave our daughter a bottle, he never did night feeds, but that's ok. What he did do was 100% of the toddler care when he was at home. He took over a lot of the household chores, he gave me the time, space and support to achieve my feeding goals.

As our children have aged and changed, so have our 50/50 roles.

@Mylittlepony374

I think I know what you mean. I was also really irked by all the mummy shit I saw around me while pregnant, the lack of focus on Dad's roles etc. I have a good career and was definite mine wouldn't suffer any more than my husbands. I was very certain that I would be 50:50 with husband with everything with our kids. In some ways we are, we both work 4 days and each stay home with them one day a week etc. But, when they were born it was like some primal beast took me over....i didn't WANT him to do night feeds (breastfed bottle refusers anyway), I had no issue with him going out etc because I wanted to sit and snuggle them and smell their little heads etc, still now when they're toddlers if they're hurt I want to be the one they seek for comfort. I found strength rather than oppression in the new role. I'm sure it's not that way for all but just to say how you feel when the baby arrives may be completely different to what you expect.

I had this exact same experience too. I was convinced I would stay very career minded and DH and I would be 50/50 parents. Instead I found the greatest strength (as the above PP also says) and meaning I've ever experienced in my very womanly role as a mother (yes mother, not parent). Intellectually I never wanted to see it this way beforehand either, but when I actually experienced it, I found there to be something unique to motherhood that I don't think dads can experience in the same way. It is a very special experience to me. There is something very powerful about childbirth for example, despite or indeed enmeshed with the pain. Same with breastfeeding. I don't know if that makes me a bad feminist but my lived experience simply differed from (what I now see as) a simplistic feminist storyline which I think OP is referring to.

When we had our second DC, instead of taking SPL again, I took a full year of mat leave all to myself and was so happy to have that time with the baby all to myself. We happily ditched our previous ideas about 50/50 from the start and I gave all in to motherhood. I still have a career and enjoy my work but nothing could ever compare to what motherhood means to me.

I'm not sure we are expected to suffer though.

There are absolutely people who insist on wanting everything natural, big I've not heard anyone be shamed for using medication, everyone knows how painful birth can be, only a crazy person would berate a woman for using medicine.

I personally hate the idea of lying on my back and pushing. I'm so glad I had a lovely water birth in a beautifully lit room.

I certainly wouldn't judge anyone for getting an epidural, I wouldn't say it's forced on us to be natural.

Parenting as a whole o the other hand, there definitely are expectations.

Interesting thread.
Motherhood has made me an even more passionate feminist than I was before.
I think that it's relatively easy to have an equal partnership and to feel that men and women are "the same" in terms of being able to do the same things, share all tasks equally etc etc.
Having a baby blows it all out of the water really, it's a stark reminder of the realities of biology - only females can gestate, birth and breastfeed babies, and those things demand a huge amount of physical and emotional resources from a woman. You absolutely cannot share those tasks equally. The best a man can do is support, value and appreciate a woman in doing those things, (and many men don't, sadly, if Mumsnet threads are anything to go by!) Of course, as children get older, it can and does become more equal. And it does help if both parents take time off work (not necessarily SPL - which works for some but not others - but also both parents working 4 days a week, for example, sharing nursery/school runs, sharing time off for sickness and holidays).

Personally, I've had mixed feelings of resentment and empowerment when it comes to pregnancy, childbirth and breastfeeding. On the one hand, I have felt very resentful towards DH that I had to do those things while he couldn't (even though it obviously wasn't his fault that he couldn't, and it was my choice to breastfeed). On the other hand, I felt/feel incredibly proud of doing those things and of my strength as a mother.

Since having children, I can't quite shake the feeling that women are vastly superior to men, which is possibly not helpful, as I seem to have turned into that cliché of a man-hating feminist I don't hate men, as such, I just feel that they can't understand such a profound and primal experience. I don't feel that about childless women, weirdly... I think it's something to do with the sheer fact of being able to bear children that makes us so vulnerable, whether we have them or not.

Oh and I think people fall into the trap of thinking we live in a fairly "equal" society until they become parents and then the full weight of the patriarchy - complete with substandard maternity services, radically different expectations of mothers and fathers, gender stereotypes in clothes, toys and everything else, and the gender pay gap - punches you hard in the face. It's impossible to ignore when you have children.

@Orangepen13 what unreasonable demands do you feel are being placed on you during your pregnancy ?

I don't know if that makes me a bad feminist

Feminism has failed us utterly if it chastises motherhood.

@AnotherEmma

Oh and I think people fall into the trap of thinking we live in a fairly "equal" society until they become parents and then the full weight of the patriarchy - complete with substandard maternity services, radically different expectations of mothers and fathers, gender stereotypes in clothes, toys and everything else, and the gender pay gap - punches you hard in the face. It's impossible to ignore when you have children.

This

@AnotherEmma is correct.

Also most heterosexual couples cannot afford to do shared parental leave due to the female partner being the lower earner and most companies not giving enhanced parental leave pay to anyone.

@Opticabbage

I did shared parental leave with my DP, and have a male friend who did similar with his wife. Both of the men found it difficult due to other people's expectations of them e.g. they couldn't competently look after a baby, couldn't book appointments for a child. They were both lucky as they had friends who were around in the day, but found lots of other mothers avoided them in parent and baby groups.

In addition my DP had a fight to get his enhanced parental leave paid. He only got it because he is in a union and knew who to talk to, to challenge HR's initial stance. (They were initially demanding my wage details as they were peeved they had to pay up. ) My DP works compressed hours so looks after our DD for a couple of days in the week.

My male friend got bullied out of his job for taking parental leave and then having flexible hours by a middle manager. When senior management realised what was going on it was too late as my friend had found another job. My friend didn't have the same enhanced parental leave for his second child so didn't take the time off, but he still has flexible hours. So he takes time off when his wife is working and vice versa so they can manage looking after their children and minimise childcare costs.

I shared my leave with DH and we are the only couple I know who did. As other posters have said, how well it works for you depends on your jobs. Luckily DH and I earn similarly, and neither of us gets enhanced pay. I took 6 months and he took 3. Obviously in advance I didn't know how I'd feel about giving up 3 months, but I wanted to minimise my career break and luckily I wasn't still hankering to be at home after 6 months. But I knew I wanted DH to experience being the parent at home, to try and avoid us falling into that rut of me doing everything in the house. After DH went back to work I used annual leave to work 3 days a week in months 10-12 which was nice, so I got that bit of extra time.

We both still work full time, DS is 3 this summer and I am (very early) pregnant again. It's been good I think. I would say the main thing is to just revisit things in your head every so often: are you happy with how equal things are? What does equality mean for you? Are there some areas you need to push back on a bit? Do you feel like your career takes equal precedence? (if that is what matters to you)

As long as you are happy with the choices you have made as a family, you will be OK. And like others have said, don't stress about the small things like the birth and early days, it kind of has to be unequal then, and it flies by anyway. You just want to make sure the groundwork is set for the long term :)