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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

late to the party

31 replies

cervixuser · 14/05/2021 10:21

Partly because I'm semi-retired so don't have to deal with dick moves from HR about pronouns and partly because of all sorts of other things, I failed to see how dangerous the whole TWAW etc is. I'm doing my best to educate myself (a lot from this board) but am really struggling with putting my argument across to people who seem to think that I'm the one who doesn't get it.
I have a role within a local political party which I intend to resign shortly but intend to stay within the party to fight against the crap that is happening. I do have some support but it tends to be from older feminists like me. Recently things came to a head because I told someone (a man) how disappointed I was with the leadership and what was happening to our organisation. He told me that he used to think like that but that he read stuff and educated himself. I felt so undermined and I seem to have lost the confidence to argue against things like this.
I don't know what I'm really looking for here - some solidarity perhaps and just for you all to know how refreshing I find this board.
I'm going away for a couple of days soon so may not reply immediately.

OP posts:
Nonmaquillee · 14/05/2021 10:23

Well your username is interesting for a start...guessing that it’s tongue in cheek?

Erikrie · 14/05/2021 10:23

Welcome.

cervixuser · 14/05/2021 10:23

@Nonmaquillee

Well your username is interesting for a start...guessing that it’s tongue in cheek?
oh absolutely -
OP posts:
NonnyMouse1337 · 14/05/2021 10:39

Gender ideology impacts on so many different areas in all sorts of ways, so don't feel bad that you aren't feeling confident with all the arguments or don't know a lot of the finer details. It takes a while to absorb the various aspects of it all.

It's probably worth focusing on one or two areas initially. You say you are in a political party. What issues might be most pertinent to you? Maybe representation of women in the party and in getting into roles of influence?

UppityPuppity · 14/05/2021 10:41

Welcome!!!

I think we all feel late to the party when we arrive - and no yet has been the first to leave!

Helleofabore · 14/05/2021 10:54

I’d be asking him what he has read that was so convincing OP. Post it here when you get it and maybe it will convince others.

I am actually interested in reading all aspects of the situation. I know many others are too, so it will certainly get well read.

Or, maybe it was just some propaganda that convinced him the party would do better to follow a particular line to win votes.

Either way. It’s interesting to see what he came back with.

TheFleegleHasLanded · 14/05/2021 10:54

If you feel able to share which party we could probably help you to formulate arguments against particular issues.

If you don't feel able to share, (and I do understand why) then have a look at the women's groups that have formed in each party and perhaps get in touch with the one relevant to you.

conservativesforwomen.org/

labourwomensdeclaration.org.uk/

liberalvoiceforwomen.org/blog

www.wepsbr.com/

secure.avaaz.org/community_petitions/en/SNP_members_and_supporters_SNP_Womens_Pledge/?oUNmap

Can't find the Greens, but I know there is one; I'm sure someone else will have a link.

ReuT3 · 14/05/2021 11:05

@Helleofabore

I’d be asking him what he has read that was so convincing OP. Post it here when you get it and maybe it will convince others.

I am actually interested in reading all aspects of the situation. I know many others are too, so it will certainly get well read.

Or, maybe it was just some propaganda that convinced him the party would do better to follow a particular line to win votes.

Either way. It’s interesting to see what he came back with.

I like this post OP. He educated himself so asking him more about it would be you ''educating'' yourself and him not expounding would be him getting in the way of you ''educating'' yourself when he is your sole source of information on the matter.
NonnyMouse1337 · 14/05/2021 11:07

Website for SNP women's pledge.
www.snpwomenspledge.com/

unwashedanddazed · 14/05/2021 11:09

I'd love to know what he read that convinced him so. I try to read everything around gender ideology, from all sides. Including the forums where women like me are hated with a scary intensity. I really do try to understand.

The more I read the more I'm certain that the whole ideology is just a flimsy house of cards.

GCmiddle · 14/05/2021 11:13

Hi OP,
Tell your colleague to read Kathleen Stock's new book 'Material Girls', as I suspect his education is incomplete...also, seriously, if you are looking to build your confidence with good solid arguements, then Kathleen's book will help.

cervixuser · 14/05/2021 11:17

@GCmiddle

Hi OP, Tell your colleague to read Kathleen Stock's new book 'Material Girls', as I suspect his education is incomplete...also, seriously, if you are looking to build your confidence with good solid arguements, then Kathleen's book will help.
thank you - I shall
OP posts:
cervixuser · 14/05/2021 11:19

@TheFleegleHasLanded

If you feel able to share which party we could probably help you to formulate arguments against particular issues.

If you don't feel able to share, (and I do understand why) then have a look at the women's groups that have formed in each party and perhaps get in touch with the one relevant to you.

conservativesforwomen.org/

labourwomensdeclaration.org.uk/

liberalvoiceforwomen.org/blog

www.wepsbr.com/

secure.avaaz.org/community_petitions/en/SNP_members_and_supporters_SNP_Womens_Pledge/?oUNmap

Can't find the Greens, but I know there is one; I'm sure someone else will have a link.

Green -

I hate what is happening to our party - climate change is being forgotten while people flap around with gender identity

OP posts:
justawoman · 14/05/2021 11:25

@UppityPuppity

Welcome!!!

I think we all feel late to the party when we arrive - and no yet has been the first to leave!

This. I remember back in the dark ages when I used to campaign for LGB rights we noticed that while lots of people moved from a conservative stance (homophobic and/or opposed to same-sex marriage) to an accepting view, nobody ever went the other way. It was an early indication that we were winning the argument. Similarly with this: I see many women, including myself, moving from a liberal feminist position to a gender critical one - but nobody or almost nobody going the other way.
PatsArrow · 14/05/2021 11:30

Welcome.

It's taken me years to get a full understanding of what's going on, so big welcome. I still learn new things everyday.

I recommend some podcasts. I listen to lots while cooking.

Triggernometry (with Posie Parker, Marcus Evans)

Savage Minds

Gender - A Wiser Lens

Feminist Current - Meghan Murphy

The Mess We're in - with Graham Linehan, Art Morty and Helen Staniland (its great for a weekly round up and they have some amazing guests)

I also highly recommend on YouTube

Dysphoric - in 4 parts. Really in-depth.

Terf Wars - feature length dive into basically a summary made up from internet clips/interviews.

OhHolyJesus · 14/05/2021 11:54

I second all that Pats shared, some excellent examples there. Posie is a good one as she never wavers, never bends her words to suit others. She calls a spade a spade so no mental gymnastics necessary.

I also like Karen Davies, Grace atRadical Responses, Maya Kaye (a transsexual male) and of course Magdalen Berns.

If you're nervous about the argument I would just listen, find homes and ask questions.

If looking to tackle a view, keep it simple.

The best thing I've seen on the comparison between Feminism and Gender Ideology (as we feminists are such evil women), is this.

A girl plays with card and wants to be a mechanic when she grows up.

Feminism - women can be mechanics

Sexism - only men can be mechanics

Gender Ideology/Queer Theory - you like cars? Are you even a girl?

I was also late to the party and in the years I've been aware no one has ever presented a definition of 'gender' (identity) that isn't based in stereotypes, made a foolproof argument that humans can change sex, told me what rights a trans person doesn't have or given me an example of a 'gender critical' or radical feminist murdering a trans person. Also the suicide stats, if they were to be believed, we would have both a nation scandal in headline news and full morgues.

I'm an ex-Green and whilst there is some push back in the party, I just couldn't hold on any longer.

WarriorN · 14/05/2021 12:02

I know of people working within the greens very hard to combat this so do not despair.

You're right it's getting the wording right.

The more you read and watch it starts to become second nature, hard science helps too. I have a notes bit on my phone where I copy good quotes and links.

Gina Rippon, the gendered brain; no such thing as a brain sex (in terms of scans, skill expression etc. Good recent podcast on Savage Minds by Julian Vigo.)

Politically, it's the financial side of things that is worth reading about and exposing, as well as hard science around sports and sex.

Tras are now appropriating intersex as the reason for trans however, as lots of brain science points to no evidence in scans and it's essentially very sexist. However, a sex spectrum or third sex is absolute bollicks and still very sexist. Good Benjamin Boyce had a great discussion with Dr Fond of beetles (sorry forgotten her name!) and another evolutionary biologist on all that.

Talk about trans men's rights, needs, medical issues. It's all about the trans women. It starts to unravel when you consider trans men's needs

Talk about children; how young children should be able to wear and do what they want. The issues around locking them into thinking they're "in the wrong body." Safeguarding issues medically, using loos and changing rooms, how 80-90 % are actually gay and the issues around talking to children about sexed bodies and their sex if you're going to talk about "being the wrong sex." (You can't talk about changing sex and the loss of sexual function through operations etc)

Trans widows. And associated things you can read on the website.

Children of the transitioned: childrenoftransitioners.org/

Lesbians and lesbian spaces.

The stories of the detransitioned.

WarriorN · 14/05/2021 12:10

Swedish trans train documentaries are useful. I can't find the website but there's been a down turn in girls seeking GD diagnosis since the media started talking about the issues.

TheFleegleHasLanded · 14/05/2021 15:42

I don't know if you use Facebook OP, but the Green Feminists hang out here:
www.facebook.com/GreenFeminists

OhHolyJesus · 14/05/2021 15:48

Great post Warrior.

Mollyollydolly · 14/05/2021 16:45

For a reasoned compassionate essay and a starting point you cant beat the one JK Rowling wrote (it's on her website). Having said that much good it did her!
www.jkrowling.com/opinions/j-k-rowling-writes-about-her-reasons-for-speaking-out-on-sex-and-gender-issues/

nauticant · 14/05/2021 17:00

really struggling with putting my argument across to people who seem to think that I'm the one who doesn't get it

One thing it's worth getting clear right at the start is that you're arguing against a faith-based belief system that is built on dodgy foundations made up of contradictions and anti-science and anti-logic.

This means that if you try to engage with any of the followers of the gender identity ideology it is very hard to make any headway because they have split the world into "allies" and "transphobes" and if they hear you coming out with any "heresy" they will put you in the "transphobes" box. They won't want to engage because anything that goes against their belief system will cause them such cognitive dissonance they often lash out at the perceived cause of their pain.

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 14/05/2021 17:02

You might start with a few pictures - say Alex Drummond (a TW on Stonewall trans advisory board).Is Alex a woman? If your colleague thinks so, then why? What makes Alex a woman? Should we treat Alex exactly like a woman in all situations? Would that be fair? How would women feel about it?

You could talk about Stonewalls definition of 'Gender' (below):-

Often expressed in terms of masculinity and femininity, gender is largely culturally determined and is assumed from the sex assigned at birth

and 'Gender Identity' below:-

A person’s innate sense of their own gender, whether male, female or something else (see non-binary below), which may or may not correspond to the sex assigned at birth

And then check out the Wikipedia page on femininity which includes:-

Traits such as nurturance, sensitivity, sweetness,[15] supportiveness,[11][8] gentleness,[8][9] warmth,[11][9] passivity, cooperativeness, expressiveness,[25] modesty, humility, empathy,[8] affection, tenderness,[11] and being emotional, kind, helpful, devoted, and understanding[9] have been cited as stereotypically feminine. The defining characteristics of femininity vary between and even within societies.[11

Stonewall are saying that a woman is someone who 'identifies' with the set of characteristics above. Loud, boisterous, assertive, ambitious females are not women, apparently.

And then ask them how this is not about old fashioned regressive stereotypes used to hold women back from time immemorial.

nauticant · 14/05/2021 17:10

Swedish trans train documentaries are useful

Very much this. Progressive Sweden's national broadcaster investigated what was going on and it caused such concern the country's Gender Treatment services suddenly started making U-turns:
Part 1:
Part 2:
Part 3:

ArabellaScott · 14/05/2021 17:22

Welcome, OP.