Terrified of regressive modern feminism

[TRHR]

By saying "you can't be a woman if you're born without a vagina, and if you're born with a vagina you must be a woman" you're making reproductive organs the defining and most important characteristic of being a woman. This attitude was used to oppress women for centuries. We were baby makers only, and hormonal and chromosomal differences were used to say that we were too "emotional " for public life, education and jobs. Only over the last 100 or so years have our minds and emotions been rightfully recognised as just as important as our vaginas. GC is now going back to seeing our sex organs as our most important identifier and as a feminist and a young woman this really scares me. It is playing right into the traditional patriarchy, is sexist, regressive and oppressive. The fact its being done in the name of 'feminism ' terrifies me. The recent historic implications of insisting women are defined by their bodies scares me. These views are still held by conservative (often religion based) communities and we've all seen how easy it is for these groups to gain power - feminists shouldn't be helping them justify their attitudes or behaviour.

If you've seen/read the Handmaid's Tale you'll know what attitudes I'm afraid of. GCs ironically tell TRAs they are 'handmaids' when actually it is their attitude that has historically led to the oppression that Attwood (who is trans inclusive) bases her books on.

Gender is not a set of stereotypes - it's an identity based on culture, history, society , psychology and often (but not always) sex. It's far more freeing than "vagina = woman" and takes account of each of us as individuals not just bodies, which is what feminism up until now has fought for.
As an example, many trans women don't wear "girly " clothes, they identify as "masculine/butch" lesbians. Many trans men still like wearing make up and dresses e.g. in drag.
Many people would say the world shouldn't be defined as 'male / female' at all. But it always has done, that won't be changed in our lifetime. So seen as that is our social structure, it's oppressive to police how people choose to move through life under this structure based on bodies.
Thanks for reading this far and if I get one extra person to consider the harm that GC is doing, especially to young women of child bearing age, it'll be worth the condescension and vitriol that this post will inevitably receive.

But, so that you don’t accuse me of dodging the question again:

I assume you mean the question about how I would feel if one of the taxi drivers I mentioned (who have said things that made me feel uncomfortable) was in a hospital bed next to me. I’m assuming what you actually mean is, how would I feel if a person in a hospital bed next to me was saying or doing things that made me feel uncomfortable? Then, obviously, I would feel uncomfortable. Depending on how bad it was, I might make the nurses aware.

@Helen8220

But, so that you don’t accuse me of dodging the question again:

I assume you mean the question about how I would feel if one of the taxi drivers I mentioned (who have said things that made me feel uncomfortable) was in a hospital bed next to me. I’m assuming what you actually mean is, how would I feel if a person in a hospital bed next to me was saying or doing things that made me feel uncomfortable? Then, obviously, I would feel uncomfortable. Depending on how bad it was, I might make the nurses aware.

And then what? You're still stuck in hospital with a creepy male in the next bed.

.* I understand that a significant number of people feel that having patients of the opposite sex around reduces their dignity and privacy more than having patients of the same sex around. I don’t really understand why, although I suspect it’s partly generational. My homework will be to ask my mum how she feels about it - she’s in her 70s and has had quite a few hospital stays over the years.*

I think someone is just having a laugh now.

And are you aware, Helen, that the NHS has in parts of the country been advised to re-educate patients that complain as you have thus described?
So your complaint wouldn't achieve anything other than the accusation of bigotry being thrown at you.
I haven't kept up with Eresh posts, but one of the reasons people often 'bear down' on specific questions is because it's important to think things through from all perspectives and situations, not just our own.

For example, I am a white atheist. However, for me to wave away women's rights without thought to how it effects Muslim minorities is short sighted. I know how vital female only spaces are for them, having a close Muslim friend who dragged herself out of post natal depression by joining various mum and baby groups and activities. For her to say, go swimming, with baby she needs single sex spaces. Thankfully, her children are grown up now so she's not having to navigate this mess, but I hate to think of young mum's now in a similar situation being isolated.
It's not a gotcha. This is a real person I know who would have been profoundly affected by men being allowed into female single sex spaces. I want to know others are thinking about her and similar others too and not hand waving her away because she's not 'typical' in her needs.

Then, obviously, I would feel uncomfortable. Depending on how bad it was, I might make the nurses aware.

Perhaps, now you've grudgingly performed that thought experiment, you might have a scintilla of empathy for other women who don't want to share spaces where they are vulnerable with any males who make them feel uncomfortable.

I would be more inclined to respond to you if you approached the discussion in a less hostile and bullying way

I'll approach the discussion in any way I see fit. You made some bizarre, empathy-free comments, and you were challenged on them. You admitted that you are posting from a position of relative privilege.

For me this is the major problem with the "wouldn't it be great if sex boundaries were broken down" "let's just be kind, it costs us nothing" of people like the OP and others.

The lack of empathy, the assumption that you can handwave away other less privileged women's concerns, women in prison, women who need to use unsafe public toilets, women requiring rape and domestic violence services, women in homeless shelters, women on locked mental health wards.

The luxury beliefs of privileged people who identify as righteous are quite something.

https://www.feministcurrent.com/2018/03/23/leftist-women-uk-refuse-accept-labours-attempts-silence-critiques-gender-identity/

After participating in a debate about housing with these students, Mcdonagh’s group was featured in a radical anarchist publication called STRIKE! Magazinene*^. Looking through the publication, Mcdonagh was shocked to find an article promoting pornography and various sex industry-related “sex tips,” instructing women on how to “deep throat,” for example.
“How could I share this with the women in our community project?!” she asked. Mcdonagh explained that many of the women and girls she worked with were being pimped out daily. “One young girl only 17 had recently had her face smashed in by a punter and had 16 metal pins put in to hold her face together.” Mcdonagh got angry.
“We are far from a prudish group of women. Many of us have experienced firsthand the very real impact of the porn/the sex industry on working class women and girls. How did they not know how utterly pathetic it was to be promoting this idea to young women? Let alone place it next to a transcript of local people discussing homelessness!”

Pontificating from a position of privilege is always very easy.
I am sure that the Upstairs lot really believed that children enjoyed climbing chimneys and the skivvies in the kitchens were desperate to get up at the crack of dawn to heat up water for their baths.
If you are unlikely to be in a public ward in a hospital who cares if some women have to put up with a man in the next bed.

@NiceGerbil

Gender non conforming is not just about how you 'present' though.

To me anyway.

Prescriptive gender roles cut across everything.

The suffragettes were gender non conforming. They did not agree with being disbarred from voting due to their sex. They decided to fight.

That was GNC.

They carried out various acts. Arson. Setting bombs.

That was GNC.

They did not stand down. They chained themselves to railings. They got put in prison. Where they were essentially tortured in various ways.

That's GNC.

The pics I've seen they have the hair clothes etc for women of that time.

I don't understand why you see gender role/ sex role as only external presentation. What you wear is trivial. How you think and the actions you take. Are much bigger. And women doing that, speaking out, trying to achieve change. Fighting for what they believe in. All of that. Is GNC.

I'd be interested to understand why the presentation is the main thing for you. It's so different from my view.

I'm so glad NiceGerbil highlighted this. GNC has been THE act that women have used to demonstrate our talents and to demand our rights. Malala was shot because of her GNC actions, despite her very GC clothing presentation - she wears a veil and clothing/hair typical of women/girls in Pakistan.

Pontificating from a position of privilege is always very easy

Agreed

If you are unlikely to be in a public ward in a hospital who cares if some women have to put up with a man in the next bed

If one has the privilege, one should pontificate for the voiceless.

People who consider themselves progressive but who sell out vulnerable women for fashionable beliefs are not progressive.

I want to hop back to this point, as it seems so key to the differences in our opinion and experiences.

But I hope over time it will become less common for people to regard the opposite sex as so ‘other’, and stop feeling any more awkward or embarrassed being undressed around the opposite sex than they are around people of their own sex

My lived experience, over time, has very much been that the difference between the sexes became MORE obvious, and absolutely to my detriment. The accumulated detritus of 40 odd years of adulthood has shown me that I can’t fucking trust many (NAMALT) men. I WILL be groped, ogled, photographed without consent in a state of undress or vulnerability. And for that reason, I want single sex spaces.

Never mind Traveller and Muslim women and their needs.

@334bu

I think someone is just having a laugh now.

Why do you think that?

@334bu

Pontificating from a position of privilege is always very easy. I am sure that the Upstairs lot really believed that children enjoyed climbing chimneys and the skivvies in the kitchens were desperate to get up at the crack of dawn to heat up water for their baths. If you are unlikely to be in a public ward in a hospital who cares if some women have to put up with a man in the next bed.

As a side issue, I just watched a really interesting three-part series on domestic service, very interesting, especially in one episode where the relationship between the suffragettes and the women in domestic service was discussed.

@SunnydaleClassProtector99

And are you aware, Helen, that the NHS has in parts of the country been advised to re-educate patients that complain as you have thus described? So your complaint wouldn't achieve anything other than the accusation of bigotry being thrown at you. I haven't kept up with Eresh posts, but one of the reasons people often 'bear down' on specific questions is because it's important to think things through from all perspectives and situations, not just our own.

I would be quite surprised if I was called a bigot for complaining about the fact that a person was doing or saying inappropriate things - I wouldn’t be complaining just about their presence, or what sort of person they were.

For example, I am a white atheist. However, for me to wave away women's rights without thought to how it effects Muslim minorities is short sighted. I know how vital female only spaces are for them, having a close Muslim friend who dragged herself out of post natal depression by joining various mum and baby groups and activities. For her to say, go swimming, with baby she needs single sex spaces. Thankfully, her children are grown up now so she's not having to navigate this mess, but I hate to think of young mum's now in a similar situation being isolated. It's not a gotcha. This is a real person I know who would have been profoundly affected by men being allowed into female single sex spaces. I want to know others are thinking about her and similar others too and not hand waving her away because she's not 'typical' in her needs.

I do agree that the full variety of people’s needs and the specific support they might require should be taken into account in designing public services - whether that’s due to disability or particular cultural or religious backgrounds. Having said that, we live in a secular society, and I don’t think that particular religious beliefs or requirements should dictate the way in which services are provided for everyone. Competing rights always need to be balanced, and it can be a delicate and complicated process - as the various court cases involving Christians and their objections to gay people have shown.

@334bu

If you are unlikely to be in a public ward in a hospital who cares if some women have to put up with a man in the next bed.

Are you suggesting I’m unlikely to ever find myself in a public ward in a hospital? Why do you think that? Anyone can be involved in an accident or contract a serious illness.

How do you propose to balance those rights?
We really should not compare the perfectly reasonable expectation of Muslim women wanting a same sex space to homophobia. A Muslim women living a modest life doesn't infringe on anyone else.

I do think the naivety of youth does impact on the optimism of young women about the safety level of mixed spaces. More older feminists will disagree because our experiences have demonstrated the need for sex segregation to protect these young innocents from our experiences of rape, assault, harassment, flashing, embarrassed and humiliated

I hope they can go through life with that innocence intact. If they do it is in some part down to the hard fought activity of the feminists before them to provide safe spaces for them.

I can't sit by and allow vulnerable women prisons to be imprisonned alongside people with penis'

I can't sit by allow young girls to be expected to shower alongside male bodied people

I can't sit by and allow sports women to be disenfranchised by people with huge advantages of male bodies taking their spots on teams

@Helen8220 you know that allowing male bodies into these spaces disadvantages women and girls. I don't understand why you don't care about that negative impact.

@NiceGerbil and @Delphinium20
I certainly didn’t mean to suggest that being gender non-conforming is only ever just a matter of appearance - but in the context of talking about how we categorise people as male or female by looking at them, that seems to me the relevant aspect of gender non-conformity. People might be surprised to see a woman doing something that they conventionally don’t expect women to do, but I don’t think that in itself would make them question whether or not the person was a woman (although I realise anyway you disagree that it’s ever the case that you can’t tell a person’s biological sex as a result of them having a non-gender conforming appearance)

'
If you are unlikely to be in a public ward in a hospital who cares if some women have to put up with a man in the next bed.'

I missed this!

What on earth?

Loads of people care about what happens to others. I'm thinking you're not first in the line to eg donate when there's a massive crisis overseas or feel concern about something like girls schools being attacked in Afghanistan.

Did you really mean that? And do you apply this philosophy across your whole life?

Your seeming inability to empathise (that's never happened to me so no I can't relate to it at all) seems to be really broad ranging.

That's very unusual tbh. You're aware of that I assume.

As for unlikely to be on a 'public ward'. Anything can happen. Who knows what we will need in terms of inpatient treatment as we age? Car crash, fall off bike, loads of stuff. And public ward is unusual phrasing- private rooms do exist I know that but you have to pay extra/ have a real need I think? Dunno.

How can anyone say they are unlikely to essentially ever be an inpatient in hosp, for anything?!

How do you propose to balance those rights?
We really should not compare the perfectly reasonable expectation of Muslim women wanting a same sex space to homophobia. A Muslim women living a modest life doesn't infringe on anyone else.

Not that it’s for me to tell a person what they should or shouldn’t believe, or how they should live, but to me the expectation that women have to be ‘modest’ seems regressive and oppressive. If everyone else who didn’t hold that belief was happy to share mixed sex facilities (I’m not saying they currently are), I don’t think the whole system should be set up just to meet that expectation of how women should behave. And for so long as we have separate facilities for men and women, the rights of non-trans people who object to the presence of trans people in those places do have to be balanced against the rights of trans people who want to use those facilities.

@NiceGerbil

I think you may have misunderstood, I was quoting @334bu

That's not a solution.

'Having said that, we live in a secular society, '

No we don't.
We are a Christian country officially.
The Queen is head of the c of e.
Many many of our schools are faith schools (some more religious than others).
Google tells me about 75% of people in the UK have a religion.

We have relatively famous issues with sectarianism. I'm sure you are aware of the history and current situation in northern Ireland? Also sectarianism in parts of Scotland although I know less about that.

Are you sort of. Thinking about your posts at all?

Sorry about the hosp post- my mistake. I take it back!