Terrified of regressive modern feminism

[TRHR]

By saying "you can't be a woman if you're born without a vagina, and if you're born with a vagina you must be a woman" you're making reproductive organs the defining and most important characteristic of being a woman. This attitude was used to oppress women for centuries. We were baby makers only, and hormonal and chromosomal differences were used to say that we were too "emotional " for public life, education and jobs. Only over the last 100 or so years have our minds and emotions been rightfully recognised as just as important as our vaginas. GC is now going back to seeing our sex organs as our most important identifier and as a feminist and a young woman this really scares me. It is playing right into the traditional patriarchy, is sexist, regressive and oppressive. The fact its being done in the name of 'feminism ' terrifies me. The recent historic implications of insisting women are defined by their bodies scares me. These views are still held by conservative (often religion based) communities and we've all seen how easy it is for these groups to gain power - feminists shouldn't be helping them justify their attitudes or behaviour.

If you've seen/read the Handmaid's Tale you'll know what attitudes I'm afraid of. GCs ironically tell TRAs they are 'handmaids' when actually it is their attitude that has historically led to the oppression that Attwood (who is trans inclusive) bases her books on.

Gender is not a set of stereotypes - it's an identity based on culture, history, society , psychology and often (but not always) sex. It's far more freeing than "vagina = woman" and takes account of each of us as individuals not just bodies, which is what feminism up until now has fought for.
As an example, many trans women don't wear "girly " clothes, they identify as "masculine/butch" lesbians. Many trans men still like wearing make up and dresses e.g. in drag.
Many people would say the world shouldn't be defined as 'male / female' at all. But it always has done, that won't be changed in our lifetime. So seen as that is our social structure, it's oppressive to police how people choose to move through life under this structure based on bodies.
Thanks for reading this far and if I get one extra person to consider the harm that GC is doing, especially to young women of child bearing age, it'll be worth the condescension and vitriol that this post will inevitably receive.

And I think this is the problem with the argument based on "there aren't differences, hence we must be treated equally", because there are differences, and it should not change that we all already are human, and deserve full respect of the law without having to prove that there isn't any difference, to be "granted" those rights (or have them upheld).

I think the main problem with the 'no difference' argument is that women need specific rights and services to participate equally in society.

My definition of a 'sex based right' would be any right or service that a woman depends on, but whose withdrawal would have minimal impact on men.

Obvious rights include access to contraception, but there are many, many others.

Talking of arms, men's tend to be proportionately longer , you will tell if you wear men's clothes

As PP have said men and women walk differently because our pelvises are different, mens arms are longer, their shoulders broader and women’s centre of gravity is lower than mens.

@NiceGerbil in this context I mean gender-non-conforming in the sense of not presenting in the manner expected of a person of one’s biological sex in the relevant culture/societal setting - I’m thinking primarily in terms of hair, clothing, jewellery, make-up (or lack thereof), mannerisms, voice....

If a woman is gender conforming only if she has long hair, does not wear trousers, always wears jewellery and make-up, then there's a massive amount of women who are GNC. The concept can only exist within a very stereotypes ideology.

As a member of a very fat family, many of whom don't do any of the GC traits named above, I disagree that there is any problem in telling who is a woman and who is a man. Their bodies are designed for different parts of reproduction which has many knock-on effects whatever age and size.

Fair enough, I was just wondering, and trying to think back to situations where I’ve felt uncomfortable. I was thinking that for me I’ve sometimes been put at ease by the person saying something that made them seem less unknown and potentially threatening - eg saying something about their wife, or daughter, or their husband for that matter. But I’ve never been in that specific situation so I don’t know how I would have felt.

@Helen8220 you still haven't answered my question about one of those creepy taxi drivers you mentioned being in the next hospital bed to you. How would that make you feel?

If people were more concerned with gender presentation than sex, you would expect GNC women to be more visible in positions of power, but that is very evidently not the case.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-14573155

While individuals may not be bothered, it's pretty clear that most people want single sex wards.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7845503.stm

But in the case of people whose bodies don’t fit the paradigm for their sex - eg very fat people, or very old people - or very fat old people - you might find you’re relying much more on hairstyle, style of clothes etc.

I have to say I agree with this to an extent.

There are a few older, fatter people around town who on first glance I may not be able to tell their sex.

One man has longish, pretty hair and wears clothes with some pastel colours (unisex shapes) and he's fairly short.

So on first glance I wasn't sure but it didn't take me long to confirm he's male. Of course his sex isn't important, I was just more interested because my brain didn't immediately register sex in the way it usually does.

Then again, there's another older person who is thin, has long hair, wears make up and mini skirts but is obviously male.
And yesterday a young, fat person with long hair and a skirt but clearly male (tall, broad with male gait).

I'm not actively going out sexing people by the way, my brain just does it automatically and I was taking more notice than usual after reading on here!!

For the latter two I mentioned I think them wearing stereotypically female clothes made them more obviously male to be honest. I don't see wearing clothes stereotypically of the opposite sex as non conforming though because I grew up in the 80's. It's just fashion.

Just realised I completely contradicted myself on that post... Never mind, it's early...

@Merchymor

Just realised I completely contradicted myself on that post... Never mind, it's early...

I'm not sure if there is anything to be gained by arguing about our ability to recognise sex again.

Thanks for confirming it though!

I was just replying to a PP point?

But I’ve never been in that specific situation so I don’t know how I would have felt.

As a pp has already asked you, try using the imagination you presumably possess to picture that creepy male taxi driver you mentioned, then imagine being in a hospital gown with a gaping back and having to walk past his bed opposite you to get to the toilet, while he stares at you.

@Merchymor

Just realised I completely contradicted myself on that post... Never mind, it's early...

Interesting contradiction because it’s made me wonder-is our recognition of sex coming from an animal brain place and the existential threat /breed response is less when we see older people?

For the Buffy analogy Anya represents selfish acts. Whedon is full of metaphor. I'm not saying there's a parallel because she is a demon (she's my favourite character bar Buffy) it's because she puts her needs over the rights of the humans who wish and are wishees.
Anya's goals harm other so there's a conflict of interest. Your goals harm rape victims teen girls and religious minorities.
It doesn't matter how tra/Anya feels. If her actions harm others then it's viewed as morally wrong. In the episode I reference Anya makes the right choice and undoes the ish even though it has great personal cost to her. It's the right thing to do. You're never going to convince most people that the group with power deserves happiness at the expense of those who don't have power.
Which is why being trans is portrayed as the most vulnerable. Yes to being treated as a human with dignity, yes to their own spaces for their own needs. No to removing women's sex based rights because it's an abuse of power.

And Buffy works because she's a superhero. However much I like the idea of a five foot blonde kicking the ass of hulking guys the reality is she'd lose.
Buffy encouraged a whole generation of women to be active and try out physical things. That's a good legacy. How long do you think women will.last in say kick boxing if they have to compete with males? I think a broken skull.will very quickly put women off.

@SelfPortraitWithEels I just saw your very nice comment, thank you. If there is any way through this whole messy issue, i think it has to be by open, considered, honest discussion, not cheap attempts at point-scoring.

I went strolling and shopping in our small city today: a sunny day and people had at last shed their heavy winter outer layers.

I consciously looked about me to see how difficult it was to allocate sex to passersby. Apart from a couple of babies in slings I saw not one person I couldn't instantly and reflexively categorise. No is she/isn't he, no checking for hand size, no hesitation.

It's not hairstyles and it's not clothing and it's certainly not makeup or accessories. It's a combination of gait and height and body shape and proportions, especially hips and shoulders. It's voice pitch when you hear people and mannerisms, too. We're so attuned to knowing the difference that it's ridiculous to say there is none.

Now, I grant you that half the folk I saw could have been transmen and transwomen passing very successfully - how could I prove otherwise? But I don't think so. I honestly don't think so!

Hold on what's this idea that people can't tell what sex fat people are??!!

Could being overweight mean that we don't get raped? Interesting.

I'm boggled by this suggestion.

How the hell do the good people of Tonga manage to reproduce??!!

(The most overweight country in the world. And no of course not every single person is big. But I suspect the large number who are would be taken aback at the suggestion that their sex is not apparent!)

But in the case of people whose bodies don’t fit the paradigm for their sex - eg very fat people, or very old people - or very fat old people - you might find you’re relying much more on hairstyle, style of clothes etc.

I don't believe I have ever needed to rely on clothes to tell what sex someone is. Regardless of older age, weight etc. Some may be harder to spot if they have taken puberty blockers / cross sex hormones at a young age. But aside from that then it's pretty apparent to see who is male, and who is female. Age and weight doesn't change those things. And it's pretty rude to suggest that it might.

I find the idea that to meet the paradigm of sex is considered by some t ok be dependant on age or weight

We are taking sex, not sexiness

Yes, that’s very true too: one of the many regressive things about the current trans ideology is that it says that young and conventionally sexy humans are somehow ‘more’ female or male than older, less sexy ones. Note the poster above saying that it’s dead easy to tell sex in someone wearing tight clothes who’s had work done and is conventionally attractive, as opposed to someone who’s old and fat, for instance. As though one is more ‘woman’ or ‘man’ than the other.

Midge yes well put!

And with a focus on the sexiness rules of the person posting it.

men and women gain weight differently so I don’t think weight gain hides sex.

i think it has to be by open, considered, honest discussion, not cheap attempts at point-scoring.

Oh yes, I imagine most difficult questions people don't want to answer can be handwaved away as "point scoring". Any open, honest considered discussion on the question asked by three posters now?

@Ereshkigalangcleg I’m sorry that I haven’t had time to answer all of the questions directed at me on here. There’s one of me and quite a few of you.

As to your repeating of a specific question you consider to be particularly important or difficult - I would be more inclined to respond to you if you approached the discussion in a less hostile and bullying way. You seem to regard this matter as a game, or a debating competition. In reality no one is going to ‘win’ this argument, it just serves as a distraction, and is exploited by those in positions of power who have little or no interests in helping anyone who is disadvantaged - whether women, trans people, other LGBT+ people, black people, disabled people.