Wipeout for Labour in Hartlepool

[EmbarrassingAdmissions]

Given the landslide in Hartlepool, will anything make Labour think again about the way in which they've alienated their core voters (including women)?

@FifteenToes

I don’t know about Starmer and the media, they seem to be ok with him it’s more what he says isn’t always landing

Er... the media is OK with him BECAUSE what he says isn't landing. The media will never tolerate a leader from the left who threatens to actually change anything.

Have people seriously missed the fact that the media is, by and large, a propaganda mouthpiece of the Tory party?

See this just makes me think Labour are irritating again.

Always blaming someone else for failings rather than look at own issues.

The failure in hartlepool i suspect was in part down to parachuting in a leave supporting candidate in a remain town.

That should say remain candidate in a leave town

The better choice would've been Alan Johnson.

I agree think it's too soon to judge or write off Starmer. Maybe he's not the right choice but perhaps he can still turn it around. We'll see.

I mean instead of either Miliband or Corbyn. Not now. I know that ship has sailed.

That was a stupid decision, wasn't it @PronounssheRa Made even worse by the fact he was already unpopular locally.

Thank you to everyone who replied to the Message posted to this thread at 16:42

It is a debate and therefore questions are raised

It is also a matter of interpretation

It is not possible to portray the 'working-class' as an amorphous mass

It is also a question of whether people believe that such a designation applies in their particular case

It will be recalled that on 28 July 1914 the leader of the Socialist Party of France - Jean Jaures - wrote an article supporting the mobilisation of the army of his nation and preparations for war against Germany

It will be recalled further that on 31 July 1914 Jean Jaures was murdered because as a Socialist he was obviously 'unpatriotic' according to his assassin

Ramsay MacDonald was the Leader of the Labour Party in the House of Commons in Britain and on 03 August 1914 he made a speech which was compliant with Socialist principles - it was internationalist and pacifist

Ramsay MacDonald was condemned by much of the Labour organisation - leaders of Trades Unions, affiliated groups and ordinary people who had supported the Party wherever it ran (or stood?) for Election because they were not pacifist or internationalist when confronted by a threat from Germany - they were validated by their sense of patriotism which made them the equal of anyone occupying a more elevated position in society

Ramsay MacDonald became the leader of the Labour Party and formed minority governments in 1924 and 1929 but for various reasons he was not entrusted with a majority in the House of Commons and during his time as Prime Minister in the 1930s a lot of people that may have been considered 'working-class' transferred their allegiance to Sir Oswald Mosley and the organisation that became eventually the British Union of Fascists

It was only following the Second World War - and an understanding of what Fascism had believed and how it had operated - that there was an alignment between the opinions of ordinary people and the impulses that motivated the Labour Party and it was sufficient for the General Election victory of 1945 and a majority of 140 in the House of Commons

Harold Wilson led the Labour Party to government in 1964 after a hiatus of thirteen years but the urban industrial constituency of Smethwick was an anomaly at the General Election - a 22% 'swing' to the victorious Conservative candidate who opposed immigration into Britain from the Indian sub-continent and the Caribbean

It was the sympathy of the 'working-class' for the speech of Enoch Powell in 1968 that was believed to have contributed to a General Election victory for the Conservative Party in 1970

It was the 'working-class' that formed the basis of the support for the British National Party following its emergence during the 1970s

It would not have been possible for the United Kingdom Independence Party and its successors to enjoy the support that was forthcoming if so much of the population that could have been defined as 'working-class' had not been amenable to its blandishments

It may be the contention of many people who voted for the United Kingdom to 'Leave' the European Union that their motives were 'nationalist' and not based on colour prejudice or racial or ethnic hatred

It is not intended to suggest that the 'working-class' insofar as it exists has racialist or ethnicist opinions - a generalisation of that nature would not be useful and could not be accurate

It is simply the case that there was a section of the working-class which may have voted historically for Labour because it wanted social and economic reform in its favour but its support was inconsistent and it did not share entirely the internationalism which was a feature of liberal politics including some varieties of Socialism

It is the case that since 2016 a segment of what may have been regarded as the 'working-class' which emphasised its 'patriotism' or 'nationalism' gave priority to that type of sentiment and did not feel any longer loyalty to the Labour Party and despite some sense of discomfort it has decided to support the Conservatives and to an extent this is a situation which will become permanent

It is a question of what the forces of liberalism in the United Kingdom - including the Labour Party - decide should be the approach to the altered political landscape but seeking to discard distinctive internationalist principles and follow the Conservatives would not be of any value to advocates of democracy as a means of achieving progressive radical advances in society

@Tealightsandd

That was a stupid decision, wasn't it *@PronounssheRa* Made even worse by the fact he was already unpopular locally.

Stupid and arrogant

*VELVETCLOUD?
...in the 1930s a lot of people that may have been considered 'working-class' transferred their allegiance to Sir Oswald Mosley and the organisation that became eventually the British Union of Fascists

A 'lot'?

No, this is complete and utter revisionist nonsense and very typical of the twisting of our history by leftist liberal progressives who do nothing but put this country and our history down.

Mosley and the BUF had very little support. Infact thousands, even hundreds of thousands, of trade union members, communists and other assorted working class activists consistently turned up at his meetings to oppose him. He was hugely out numbered wherever he and his small band of Fascists went. In Leeds and Liverpool he was driven put by an onslaught of bottles and bricks. Even the police and courts refused to prosecute those who assaulted him. That's how much he was hated, not just by the working class but by many in our institutions.

The bingo card is filling up rapidly. Comparing Brexit to fascism is idiotic in the extreme. Brexit is not a left or right issue. Some conservatives opposed EU membership because they saw it as a protectionist bloc which was not free market enough (where external trade was concerned). Some socialists opposed it because it was too free market (internally).

The bingo card is filling up rapidly. Comparing Brexit to fascism is idiotic in the extreme.

True and I think a lot of northerners, me included, are baffled by these accusations. The Lexit vote was strong here.

Also accusations of racism. Which is strange because in the ethnic neighbourhoods I know, many Leave posters were in the windows before the referendum. The London middle class LP think we are all thick up here. That we don't understand what the EU is and how it works. That we are all gammon racists. That we are all white amd have no ethnic diversity. That Pakistani and Jamaican heritage people here will always vote Labour. Most BAMES in England don't even live in London. Bizarre how little is known about the rest of the country. This has all been a north V London battle and now it shows

We might not have the same advantage, privilege and opportunities as London or educational advantage but we aren't stupid. But that's what the LP fuckers think of us now. That's the feeling here. Our vote was taken for granted. Well one thing the north does understand and that's democracy, we wrought and brought that, it's in our industrial history, and so the north bites back.

We might not have the same advantage, privilege and opportunities as London or educational advantage

May I ask what advantage, privilege, and opportunity you are referring to?

Is it the knife and gun crime blighting London? (Including the north London area where Keir lives).

The extreme housing crisis? The "opportunity" and "privilege" of being one of the families in temporary accommodation - Two thirds, out of the whole UK, of these families are in London).

The epic levels of rough sleepers?

Families and individuals forced away from their communities and support networks?

Yes very privileged. So much more so than York, Harrogate, Cheshire, Richmond (Yorkshire)...

And, Leave was not a north south thing. Manchester, Liverpool voted Remain.
Swathes of SE England - including outer London suburbs - voted Leave.

@Tealightsandd

We might not have the same advantage, privilege and opportunities as London or educational advantage

May I ask what advantage, privilege, and opportunity you are referring to?

Is it the knife and gun crime blighting London? (Including the north London area where Keir lives).

The extreme housing crisis? The "opportunity" and "privilege" of being one of the families in temporary accommodation - Two thirds, out of the whole UK, of these families are in London).

The epic levels of rough sleepers?

Families and individuals forced away from their communities and support networks?

Yes very privileged. So much more so than York, Harrogate, Cheshire, Richmond (Yorkshire)...

There must have been a reason that (before the pandemic) people tolerated spending their twenties and thirties crammed into HMOs with no foreseeable chance of buying their own place. Otherwise they'd all have moved to Bolton.

May I ask what advantage, privilege, and opportunity you are referring to?

Opportunity, wealth in the region that we don't have . I saw in a recent Gaurdian comment someone say something like

"London is a sea of wealth and privilege with islands of poverty. The North is a sea of poverty with islands of wealth and privilege"

That sums it up for me

Is it the knife and gun crime blighting London? (Including the north London area where Keir lives).

West Yorkshire and Greater Mancheter have the worse serious crime rates in the country, not to mention the gangs that we dare not speak the name of. Serious organised crime, including heroin and people trafficking. But you wouldn't know this from the London centric media. Every day I see in my local papers a gang convicted or a death by stabbing. Never mentioned in the national press but the same in London always is.

The extreme housing crisis? The "opportunity" and "privilege" of being one of the families in temporary accommodation - Two thirds, out of the whole UK, of these families are in London).

You think that doenst happen here. On top of that, we now have Londoners being re-housed here. Because out property for HB is cheaper

The epic levels of rough sleepers?

Same here

Families and individuals forced away from their communities and support networks?

Same here

Yes very privileged. So much more so than York, Harrogate, Cheshire, Richmond

Hardly anyone lives there.
The pop of the North is 15 million and the vast majority live in
Greater Man
West Yorks
South Yorks
Merseyside
Tyne and Wear

Thats over 10 million people in our urban area. But yeah make out we all live in some converted barn in the dales or peak district.

We live by the M62, the most surveilled road network in Europe and one of the busiest

The reason for Londoners is very simple that it's their home. Where are they're from, where their families live, where their support networks.

And, Leave was not a north south thing. Manchester, Liverpool voted Remain.
Swathes of SE England - including outer London suburbs - voted Leave

Every metropolitan county in the North voted leave

Manchester is a not even the largest city in the North and Liverpool is even smaller

This is what southerners don't understand about the North. That we have Met Counties. For example Greater Man, West Yorks, Merseyside, South Yorks etc. The cities only make up a small proportion of our urban populations and most cities here voted leave anyway

And, for the many many Londoners stuck living in shit housing, it's not just a little fun adventure whilst young. Unlike the people who come to London from the rest of the UK, pushing up housing prices, Londoners don't have a home town they'll be welcomed back to as a local. It's also the case for the many many Londoners "tolerating" barely legal HMOs that it's their only option other than homelessness. They've no chance of social housing in London (not after Blair made London a place to come to, make money, then fuck off from). But they also can't get social housing in most other parts of the UK, as non locals.

Our housing is tiny and scarce

When the slums were cleared, there seemed to be some idea from the local planning bods that we would still prefer to live in tiny terracing similar to the old mill and miners housing. So they built the new house along those lines. I couldn't believe it when I first visited council housing estates in London, they had room for a dining table!

We live by the M62, the most surveilled road network in Europe and one of the busiest

Off topic but I remember one summer getting the picnic rug out and having a nice leisurely picnic in the sunshine in the fast lane of the M62.

The extreme housing crisis? The "opportunity" and "privilege" of being one of the families in temporary accommodation - Two thirds, out of the whole UK, of these families are in London).

You think that doenst happen here. On top of that, we now have Londoners being re-housed here. Because out property for HB is cheaper

Like I said above, the data - hard physical fact - confirms that it's much much worse in London than anywhere else in the UK.
I said Two thirds of all homeless families housed in temporary accommodation are in London

How can it be the same where you are? The maths doesn't add up. Two thirds + two thirds...

The data and cold hard facts also confirm that London has more rough sleepers than anywhere else. Many more. That doesn't mean it isn't happening anywhere else but not on the level it is in London.

On top of that, we now have Londoners being re-housed here. Because out property for HB is cheaper

Those poor Londoners who are rehoused where you are. Distressing enough to be forced away from family, friends, and support networks .. but also facing ignorant prejudiced locals.

London is a sea of wealth and privilege with islands of poverty.

There are people who come to London (from all over the UK) to make money out of London before fucking off back home or elsewhere). Meanwhile, millions of Londoners are living in deprivation - in barely legal slum housing, amongst daily stabbings and other violent crimes (the majority, just like your northern examples, are not reported, because it's so commonplace now).

This is a consequence of the "opportunity" you refer to. You are more than welcome to it. But all of it.

But yeah make out we all live in some converted barn in the dales or peak district. .

It's not me doing the ignorant stereotypes. About both London and the north. It's not me dismissing educational opportunities at the many good northern universities, for example.

Converted barns? I never thought of places like York, a thriving city, to have many living in converted barns. Are you saying this is a thing there?

In terms of deprivation and under achievement the worst demographic are white 'working' class boys in seaside towns.

@Flaxmeadow

Our housing is tiny and scarce

When the slums were cleared, there seemed to be some idea from the local planning bods that we would still prefer to live in tiny terracing similar to the old mill and miners housing. So they built the new house along those lines. I couldn't believe it when I first visited council housing estates in London, they had room for a dining table!

An outlier council estate (likely sold off in right to buy years ago) doesn't represent housing in London now. Those not left to rot on the streets or hostels (including the vulnerable, abuse victims, and the disabled), are either in illegal slum private rentals, or Dickensian council flats.

Grenfell and the mould filled Croydon flats with water leaking onto electrics. That type of housing gives a more accurate picture of how Londoners have to live.

...but also facing ignorant prejudiced locals

Northerners you mean by this, spit it out.

And you wonder why this joke of a wokerati bourgeois London LP, wholesale swallowing US ID politcs, is being smashed to pieces in the North.

LP you need to get back, right now, to your working class roots, your history, our history, or you're dead in the water. We've got the numbers, the history and we invented it. Stop calling us names and for Christs sake, get off your knees.

When I say seaside towns I don't mean villages in Coorwall where all the locals have been driven out by rocketing house prices driven by second home owners from London. I mean places like Jaywick, and Blackpool. In 2019 19 out of 20 local authorities with the highest proportion of deprived neighbourhoods in England were in the north with only Hastings in the south. The most deprived neighbourhood was Jaywick in Essex, and 8 out of the remaining top ten were in Blackpool.

Northerners you mean by this, spit it out.

No I'm talking about people like you. Prejudiced. Hostile. Who can be found across the UK. Certainly not everyone is like you (thankfully) but it's a rather vocal minority.