Gender recognition certificate cost cut to £5

[Justhadathought]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56972195

"The fee to apply for a gender recognition certificate has been cut to £5, the government has announced.Ministers pledged in September to slash the cost of legally changing gender from £140 after deciding against wider reforms.

Women and Equalities Minister Liz Truss said the reduction removed a "barrier" for transgender people. While cost has been cited as an obstacle to applying, some LGBT groups say more work is needed.
The announcement comes nearly a month after the BBC revealed that the figure would be reduced.

A consultation was set up in 2018 to explore potential reforms to the way transgender people can apply for a gender recognition certificate (GRC) in England and Wales. This allows someone's acquired gender to be recorded on their birth and marriage certificates"

[LewishamMum]

@CorvusPurpureus
But the problem you identify is in the name - they are a change in legally recognised sex, not gender.

[Daisylion]

Yes I get what you're saying, I think we're both coming from the same place, but it's a legal fiction isn't it, as you cannot change your sex? Just in the same way that a company is a legal "person" but of course we know that a company doesn't have a soul/feelings, they are just treated as a legal entity in law and can be held responsible for e.g. corporate manslaughter.

I feel like it is a slippery slope to have a legal document that evidences you have changed your legal sex when you cannot actually change sex. It would mean there would be no arguments over whether a transwoman should be in a female changing room or prison. You lose the argument about single sex exceptions in the Equality Act if you legally recognise that someone actually changes their sex, whether you accept it as a legal fiction or actually (somehow) believe that TWAW.

[Shizuku]

It's an almost empty gesture - the certificate is the cheapest part of the whole process. The doctors letters typically cost around £300 and that's only if there are no complications like having had treatment from a doctor who is not on their list.

A friend of mine spent over £1000 to get hers, so now it would cost her £865. An improvement, but still well out of reach for many. You also need a mountain of supporting documentation, which many trans people don't have access to having been kicked out of their homes (20% of trans people experience homelessness).

Self ID fixes the problem - that's why we campaign for it. We will get it in the end.

[AfternoonToffee]

Self ID fixes the problem - that's why we campaign for it. We will get it in the end.

And we will fight against it. You (general) are not taking our hard won rights that easily.

[Shizuku]

@AfternoonToffee

Self ID fixes the problem - that's why we campaign for it. We will get it in the end.

And we will fight against it. You (general) are not taking our hard won rights that easily.

What has happened in all the countries that have self ID?

[AfternoonToffee]

Well the women of the UK won't be handing them to you on a plate, if it happens then there will have been resistance every step of the way.

[Shizuku]

@AfternoonToffee

Well the women of the UK won't be handing them to you on a plate, if it happens then there will have been resistance every step of the way.

I am well aware that there are plenty of people in this country who want to make life as difficult as possible for trans people.

[AfternoonToffee]

I am well aware that there are plenty of people in this country who want to make life as difficult as possible for trans people women.

Fixed it for you.

No one here wants to make life harder for trans people, but it shouldn't be easier at the expense of making women's lives harder.

[LewishamMum]

@Daisylion
I think the analogy with companies having a legal personality is apt.
Ultimately what you describe in the second paragraph is the current situation for anyone with a GDR. They have legally taken on their new sex and so they can use the prisons etc of their new sex. (They actually can’t use those of their original/chromosonsal sex.)
My point is that as that is what the law in fact does, then, whether right or wrong, we should say so, and therefore I think GDRs should be renamed as Sex Change Certificates. Whether people should be able to do that is a separate point, but as that’s what they do in practice, that’s what they should be called.
More generally, I think transgender should be renamed trans sex, because for the same reasons that is what they are actually claiming. I get why trans people object to putting trans with sexual (although it is still the wording in the Equality Act) because it’s not about sexuality, but I really don’t understand why anyone would object to it being called trans sex, when ultimately that is what it is about.

[glitterfarts]

Self id would be a disaster for women and women's rights.
Its not really worked out overseas has it.

[Gottalife]

@HamsterV2

I paid £140 for mine. Think I can apply for a £135 refund?

Facetiousness aside, the GRA should be abolished now. It (and its little piece of paper) served its legislative purpose at the time I got mine but it's now it's unnecessary due to various bits of equality legislation passed after the fact. We all know it's a work of legal fiction and can potentially obfuscate safeguarding checks.

Tbh I'd happily throw mine in the bin as it's literally not worth the paper its written on now. It's not like it affects trans people on a day to day basis anymore. Sadly you can't de-GRC yourself easily though even if you wanted to.

As previous posters have said, a reduction to the blue badge is more important - or the cost of a passport, which seems to be the default ID for every organisation these days and an unnecessary financial burden on those with low incomes.

I agree a GRC is a useless piece of paper. I think it is just meant to be a certification of your entry on the gender recognition register.

The real benefit is the new birth certificate. That is all PFC were campaigning for in the first place. Like it was before Corbett vs Corbett.

[HamsterV2]

@MadBadDaddy

Private medical reports cost about £500 each, plus cost and time of attending.

£500 ?!? Where are you getting that figure from. I'm presuming you're talking about the T452 forms?

Mine in total cost £65. £65 from my private specialist, and £0 from the GP as a favour because I have an excellent relationship with them, but would have normally cost £35.

The standard going rate for an NHS specialist is around £50. Some GICs have capped fees that have been agreed between the practicitioners. CHX for example is £50 (or used to be a couple of years ago unless it's been raised)

The standard going rate for a private specialist is around £100

GPs will charge up to £133 but the usual rate is £50-70 (I've just checked a bunch of random GP surgeries fees online to back this up) This is backed up by a recommended charge sheet produced by the BMA HERE

[Justhadathought]

Self ID fixes the problem - that's why we campaign for it. We will get it in the end

If and when that ever happens, it will certainly have to involve third spaces and separate sporting categories. So the sooner you accept that the better for all concerned.

[ProudExclu]

Have more men showed up to tell us how they’re going to take away our rights? Oh good. If they can give me a convincing argument for allowing my rapist pedophile ex to masquerade as a woman I’d be interested to hear it. Only one reason I can think of at the moment and birds of a feather comes to mind.

[HamsterV2]

@ProudExclu

Have more men showed up to tell us how they’re going to take away our rights? Oh good. If they can give me a convincing argument for allowing my rapist pedophile ex to masquerade as a woman I’d be interested to hear it. Only one reason I can think of at the moment and birds of a feather comes to mind.

I'm really sorry that happened to you Proud

I think in light of my best intentions and support of womens' rights in various threads I've made on MN, perhaps the best support I can give is actually not posting anymore on MN.

Thank you to everyone who's taken the time to interact with me on various subjects but I think it's time to bow out gracefully.

[AfternoonToffee]

Hamster it will be a real shame to see you go, you offer a very valuable insight and points of view.

[SelfPortraitWithEels]

I mainly lurk, Hamster, but I'd also be sorry to see you go.

[PenguindreamsofDraco]

I dont think you were the intended target there Hamster...

[MeadowHay]

@PenguindreamsofDraco

I dont think you were the intended target there Hamster...

Yes I didn't think so either. I'm sure everyone really values your contributions here Hamster.

[ProudExclu]

I was aiming that at those who think totally free self ID is a solution. If you have a compromise that would allow people like my ex to continue to be excluded from my space I’m happy to hear it whatever your gender.

I’m quite popular with the local trans community. Because I haven’t got an issue with anyone trans. Most of my clients are trans. I’ve got an issue with men who want to take the current tiny amounts of protection I have from my abuser and every trans friend I have would back me all the way on them.

[DialSquare]

Hamster, the fact that you think it would be more supportive to women for you to step away and not intrude on our space as it were, says so much about you as a person. I'd also be sorry to see you go as I enjoy your posts and think you have as much right as others to post here. I've seen people say that there are many Transpeople who do not agree with the TRA ideology and they should speak out against it more and that is exactly what you are doing.

[Changemusthappen]

Self ID fixes the problem - that's why we campaign for it. We will get it in the end.

I think you should be careful what you wish for, I don't think the result of this will be what you dream of. Potentially this could start a war within the trans community - those that agree with sex based rights and those that want to take them at all costs. When you put together women and those trans people that can see the activists for what they are, I think you may be surprised. Oh and if the trans activists start to go after men, adult human males, then you definitely won't get what you bargained for.

You see people are generally very amenable and happy to accomodate until they are threatened, attacked, verbally and physically abused. Which is what we see the trans activitist do every single time. And please don't claim that my using 'he' instead of 'she' by accident is actual violence, we all find it so so childish.

At the end of the day, you cannot change sex. We all know that, believe what you like but a man cannot become a woman by having a piece of paper or by having any part of their body changed. I know it's hurtful but sometimes you just have to accept reality.

[OldCrone]

Self ID fixes the problem - that's why we campaign for it.

Do you understand that self ID means any man can obtain a document which states he is female? And then a new birth certificate which says he is female.

If you take away the medical gatekeeping it means that any man can obtain a GRC saying he is a woman.

[Ereshkigalangcleg]

I'm pretty sure this poster is campaigning for exactly that.

[LangClegsInSpace]

Marvellous news! I am overjoyed that no trans person will henceforth be barred from legal gender change because they are unable, over the course of two years, to save up £140 and are also unable to fill in the fee waiver form.

It costs £1033 for a foreign national to join their partner, parent or child in the UK for just 2 years and 9 months (£1523 if applying from outside the UK). If you want to settle you must pay the same again for another visa for a further 2 years and 6 months (minimum). Then a further £2389 to apply for indefinite leave to remain. This doesn't include the NHS surcharge which is a further £624 per year (£470 for applicants under 18) which must be paid upfront to cover the whole period of each visa until you get indefinite leave to remain. Add on the fee for biometrics to be taken - £19.50 each time you apply.

After that you can choose to become a British citizen for another £1330. Additional costs include the English language test (£150 - £190) and Life in the UK test (£50). Also biometrics again (£19.50).

At each stage you can choose to pay an additional £500-£800 for expedited services which may decrease the chances of the home office hanging onto all your identity documents for several months, leaving you at the shitty end of the hostile environment, which will severely affect your ability to rent a property, get a job, drive a car etc.

There's no fee waiver for those on a low income (in fact for most applications you, or the loved one you are joining, need to show that you meet the minimum income requirement of £18.6K/year, plus £3800 for a first child and £2400 for each subsequent child.)

If you are granted a first family visa and then become destitute you can apply to have your 'no recourse to public funds' condition removed from your visa. This can take months but if you're successful you'll be able to claim benefits, help with housing, NHS care etc. and your fees may be waived for your next visa. You have to prove you are actually destitute though, which is a level of poverty far below that which is required to get a reduction or waiving of fees for British citizens applying for various government things. They just have to show they are in receipt of a means tested benefit. You have to show that you cannot keep a roof over your head or feed your children without social services involvement (which is a whole other clusterfuck).

Lifting NRPF only lasts for the duration of your visa and when it comes time to renew, you will need to explain why you are still destitute and what you have done to try to improve your circumstances. Otherwise the normal fees will apply and even if you manage to raise the funds for your visa you will once again have no recourse to public funds. If you are unsuccessful there's no right of appeal, you have to make a whole new application. If you are successful it will now take 10 years instead of 5 for you to be eligible for indefinite leave to remain.

The UK immigration system is extremely complex and there are many many ways you can fall foul of the rules. Immigration advice is heavily regulated and there is no legal aid, so add on £££ for legal advice. If you make a mistake on any of your applications, the home office reserves the right to just reject it and keep your money.

I'm so pleased the government has decided to be so kind to GRC applicants. I look forward to this level of kindness being rolled out across all government departments.