Cosmetic surgery and feminism

[LadyBuffOfBuffdonia]

Can cosmetic surgery ever sit comfortably with feminism? Branching off from a poster's comment on whether feminists would support NHS funded cosmetic surgery.
Myself, I consider cosmetic surgery to alleviate pain (is. breast reduction) to be ok if it improves the patients' quality of life. I agree with the use of Botox for medical reasons, ie. alleviating cerebral palsy spasticity. Restorative plastic surgery from burns for example I think is a good use of the surgery.
However, I do consider plastic surgery for vanity reasons to be bad for a number of reasons:

It reenforces an unrealistic beauty standard
It reenforces the importance of the male gaze
It's difficult to teach our children to love themselves when we've passed on features we ourselves 'fixed'.

Where does everyone else draw the line and does your view of cosmetic enhancement compliment or clash with your feminism?
hekint.org/2020/09/29/ethics-feminism-and-cosmetic-surgery/

The male gaze in general is oppressive and im glad we know about the problems with pandering to it all the time, but obviously many women are actually heterosexual and being attractive to men brings a lot of benefit to women as well as many negative aspects with the pressure.

If my son needs SDR surgery or Botox for mobility, I will consider it. There's a risk so I would be very cautious.
No I don't think the kindest way to get my son to deal with bullying is to change himself. Where does that end?
Miss Barbary, you don't have to be so prickly, it's a discussion and people are bound to have different ideas. My stance is somewhat informed by my understanding of what is expected of women, but not entirely. I feel uneasy about changing healthy bodies. That's not limited to women. I find it rather inconsistent that you can't see that cosmetic surgery is influenced by the world and yet previously you have said the hijab is not feminist. Surely by your own logic that's a similar choice for an individual.

Extensive / prolonged bullying about a physical feature can absolutely destroy mental health though, sadly (I work in psychiatry). Its a really tricky one.

Ive actually had breast surgery quite a few years back due to my breasts ballooning so much in pregnancy and then shrinking. I hated them so much that it began to consume me, almost dysmorphia. Did I have a responsibility to normalise sagging crinkly breasts to other women? Did i have a responsibility to stay natural?

It's interesting to read your comments. I went through similar feelings after ending up very flat chested (instead of just small). It was a horrible thing to experience but after living with it for a few years I got through the feelings and am fine now.

I do think that a mental health approach to mental problems with body shape should be used before unnecessary operations.

Taking the example in the OP, breast reduction for physical pain isn't cosmetic surgery in my opinion.

What would you suggest is the best approach from a psychological point of view? Ideally bullying should be stamped out but in my experience teachers did little to stop bullying. I think things are better in primary now, I work in one. I don't know about secondary though.
The problem I see is that the more people change a feature to fit in, the more those with that feature stick out and it becomes a cycle.
I hadn't thought about breast surgery after pregnancy, so that's changed my perspective a more nuanced understanding, so thanks for that. Mine are like dog ears since ds. Think they are worse because I exclusively pumped. Those pumps are merciless. I would not personally get mine done but understand the motivation.

Breasts are such a source of discomfort for so many women. Too big, too small, the wrong shape, not perky enough. They mark us out, they draw attention, they spoil the line, they get in the way, they let us down, they fail us, they cause problems.

It's almost like our insecurities become focussed on them.

And if they fail to do what they are supposed to do (breastfeeding) that makes it worse. I speak from experience with that.

I agree that stopping the bullying is the biggest issue, just keep trying to teach people that people are all different.

It's a huge issue - the interplay of society, the media, schools, family, expectations in a whole host of situations.

And amongst that people are making individual decisions alongside adverts that tell them they can be fixed in various ways.

Yes, absolutely. You're far from alone.

I think it's worth remembering that there is a huge industry in whose interests it is to make sure that women fail at breastfeeding.

And a huge industry/industries who benefit/s from women's insecurities about their bodies.

• I don't mean to use 'fail', btw, I don't see it as failing. Many women who wish to do so are prevented from breastfeeding or hampered or let down by a complex interplay of factors outwith their control.

I spent at least a grand to try and breastfeed.
So I have certainly lined someone's pocket.

I don't regret it though. It was really tiring and I am glad I stopped at seven months but I am grateful the technology exists so I could do that for my son. I was certainly very bitter and envious of other mums who managed it on the end, but turns out it may have been DS' inability to suckle so that adds to the feeling of unfairness.

So that's what I see when I look at my dugs. The time and sacrifice probably makes me view it differently.

I think it's worth remembering that there is a huge industry in whose interests it is to make sure that women fail at breastfeeding

You mean the makers of formula? What do you suggest then- banning that industry?

I mean if one couldn’t buy formula no women would ever fail at breastfeeding.

Formula is definitely pushed over breastfeeding in some places more than others. In some countries breastfeeding is positively discouraged.
Fed is best. But breastfeeding does bring home what they are actually for.

I think this is a really difficult topic. Some people really suffer because of the way parts of their body look and the remarks and for some the bullying that comes with it. I don't think it's possible to draw some sort of line where it is ok or not ok to get procedures done. Of course the feeling we have about our bodies and the responses we have to them are shaped by society's attitudes to them. But how do we get round that and some people are better equipped to cope with the comments or to deal with their own feelings than other are.

I think its quite nuanced. I like cosmetic surgery to be available, but I dont want it advertised or promoted. I dislike the idea of certain surgeries that do more harm than good and can be disabling, but I dont know where youd draw the line at consumer choice and who makes the decisions over other peoples bodies if not themselves.

I dont like that I felt I needed my breasts operated on, but it improved my sense of wellbeing more than i thought it would and that still remains years later. I dont like the fact that I dont feel like I can just be open about it to friends and family (hardly told anybody and noone commented) and yet if I was open, would that normalise it too much for my daughter?

I haven’t had surgery but have botox, fillers and brow micro blading. I am well aware of my reasons: vanity/internalised misogyny. I know it’s problematic in the grand scheme of things but it lets me get on with my life without wasting energy worrying about those aspects of myself. And where do you draw the line? Make up? Colouring your hair? Shaving your legs?

I like cosmetic surgery to be available, but I dont want it advertised or promoted.

This would be a good tack.

Plastic surgery isn't for me. But I would never police what is good or bad when it comes to another woman deciding what to do with her body.

I’ve often considered having a boob reduction to avoid men looking at me/them. Now I’m nearing retirement it’s not worth it, but I wish I had when I was younger, I’d be earning a lot more money if I had as I’d have had much more chance of being judged for my expertise. Male attitudes and comments about my boobs have blighted my life.

I think its quite a fine line tbh between what is cosmetic and necessary. This is interesting to me as its quite related to the field I work in and am working towards

A breast reduction because of back pain is not cosmetic. Neither is botox for reducing muscle spasticity tbh.

Reconstruction following burns is acceptable, and following cancer presumably? What about trauma such as broken cheek bone, is that acceptable? Facial weakness as a result of nerve damage? All of these things are really cosmetic. Then what about braces or orthognathic/jaw surgery? Thats often cosmetic but the difference between someone pre surgery and post is incredible.

What about cosmetic dentistry? Dental implants? If someone looses a front tooth is it acceptable to place a bridge? Thats cosmetic

What about minor problems resulting from say cancer or trauma. Are fillers acceptable when the problem is caused by cancer? Why not then if someone is born with it? What about fixing a broken nose, that is really cosmetic

The problem is is actually a lot of these procedures men get in equal measures to women, but you are only counting procedures women get. There is a vast range of cosmetic procedures out there but they are often only counted as 'vain' or problematic if its something women tend to get

On the other side of the coin its very easy to get entrapped in the cycle of surgery, some people just having relentless procedures to chase an ideal thats not really possible. Personally I would not get botox or fillers or breast enlargement or any sort of cosmetic surgery but then I don't really have anything that massively differs from the norm. If I had something obvious then I probably would

Oh no doubt the counter to that is that I'm just brain washed to think that way, I'm not enlightened, blah, blah.

In my opinion it's not brain washing, but how did we, (and I definitely include myself in this), arrive at evaluating what we think looks good? How did those decisions come about?

It's a difficult one - do we change ourselves, or expect the world to change?

@LadyBuffOfBuffdonia

Formula is definitely pushed over breastfeeding in some places more than others. In some countries breastfeeding is positively discouraged. Fed is best. But breastfeeding does bring home what they are actually for.

I don't want to derail your thread, OP, but it's not just that formula companies push formula. The mother-baby dyad is threatened by capitalism - we are actively encouraged to break that bond. Sometimes this is unintentional or done without awareness. Sometimes it is calculated.

It's a complex and delicate biological process that has been poorly understood and is threatened by various physical/medical/economic issues, and social attitudes.

I can get very angry at how women are failed by our society, and how they are always encouraged to find the site of failure as themselves or their own bodies, instead of looking at the complex interplay of issues that make some things very, very difficult.

I can get very angry at how women are failed by our society

I get very angry at feminists peddling twaddle about falling at breastfeeding. I note you retracted it but your go to word was "fail". I did not give up breastfeeding because of advertising and pressure from formula companies- I did however persist with it longer than was good for my mental health because of pressure from judgmental health visitors.

I said 'fail' in response to the OP describing it as such, MissBarbary.

I'm sorry you had a difficult time and judgemental attitudes from those who should have supported you. My concern is that women, mothers and babies all are helped and supported to do what works best for them.

I've had botox and some minor eye surgery for cosmetic reasons, just because I wanted to for my own vanity reasons of preferring how I look.. I'm a lesbian so certainly not bothered about the male gaze.