Cosmetic surgery and feminism

[LadyBuffOfBuffdonia]

Can cosmetic surgery ever sit comfortably with feminism? Branching off from a poster's comment on whether feminists would support NHS funded cosmetic surgery.
Myself, I consider cosmetic surgery to alleviate pain (is. breast reduction) to be ok if it improves the patients' quality of life. I agree with the use of Botox for medical reasons, ie. alleviating cerebral palsy spasticity. Restorative plastic surgery from burns for example I think is a good use of the surgery.
However, I do consider plastic surgery for vanity reasons to be bad for a number of reasons:

It reenforces an unrealistic beauty standard
It reenforces the importance of the male gaze
It's difficult to teach our children to love themselves when we've passed on features we ourselves 'fixed'.

Where does everyone else draw the line and does your view of cosmetic enhancement compliment or clash with your feminism?
hekint.org/2020/09/29/ethics-feminism-and-cosmetic-surgery/

[Blibbyblobby]

It puts pressure on other women who aren’t as wealthy to try to find the money. Women already are under pressure to spend money they don’t have on clothes, hairstyling, waxing and all the rest.

It's time and headspace as well. One of the reasons I stopped wearing makeup and switched to a basic work "uniform" of identical dresses in a limited range of colours was realising I was spending time and mental effort on this stuff that my male colleagues weren't.

[Blibbyblobby]

Seems pretty obvious to me that if women weren't valued on their appearance, they'd not undergo surgery to improve it.

That doesn't mean I condemn individual women for making an individual decision to "improve" their appearance. We only have one life and we have to live it within the culture as it is not as we might want it to be, so it's understandable why people do things that are not in line with their core values in order to better their own lives day to day.

I also think it's valid to say "I accept the reasons women do this today but I will still challenge and hope to change the culture so it's not necessary in the future".

The same goes for men as well as course. It's clear men are under increasing pressure to look "acceptable", although I think it's generally something they are expected to be on top of their skills and talents, not a goal and value in its own right. The careers and social roles that need nothing more than physical appearance and compliant behaviour are still more common for women then man.

[Angelica789]

I saw Kat Farmer the fashion blogger show what ‘tweakments’ she had to her face - Botox and fillers. The cost for one full face of this was several thousand pounds and it only lasts for a few months. That shocked me a bit as it’s completely unobtainable to average people.

I know not everyone can afford a Chanel handbag but there’s something different going on when some people can afford to stay youthful looking than others for so much longer. It puts pressure on other women who aren’t as wealthy to try to find the money. Women already are under pressure to spend money they don’t have on clothes, hairstyling, waxing and all the rest.

[TheFutureDoesntWork]

I think that, as with lots of aspects of feminism, it can be helpful to consider the question in an intersectional way.

For me, that goes something like : as a starting point, a branch of medicine devoted to surgically altering (mostly) women's appearance for profit, while medical research itself into how women's bodies function is lacking - that to me indicates misogynistic intent.

However, women's interaction with this can be more or less neutral or harmful depending on their position in society. So at one extreme I'd put eg narco culture, where there's an expectation that female partners of men who are financially successful successful are expected to have obvious surgical procedures which for various cultural/societal/racial pressures and that has led to women across central/south America experiencing significant pressure to have surgery. Then I guess a more benign example would be a middle class home counties high earner in the UK who has a slighter enhancement which she feels is driven by motivations around self esteem and financial autonomy. Both occur within the same originally misogynistic context but one interaction is arguably less damaging than the other.

[Iwishihadariver]

I've always had too little money (and time & energy) to spare for cosmetic anything. When it's a choice between kids & work & daily grind or money/effort for teeth straightening, hair dying, clothes buying, makeup wearing then the grind won out! To me, feminism is about centering yourself in whatever way suits your circumstances, even if it's a paltry 5 minutes swearing at the latest post on mumsnet.

It would be a shame to go back to the old idea of a standard "uniform" or "character" that feminists must share to be in the club. I remember the 70s when I really objected to hairy armpits and legs. I guess we can still fight for our rights & have cosmetic work done. Viva la difference.

[PlanDeRaccordement]

I don’t see a conflict between feminism and cosmetic surgery at all. Cosmetic surgery is simply a technological advance and women should be absolutely free to use it or not, for any reason. I dont agree in categorising having a boob job is nonfeminist, and leaving your boobs natural is feminist. We aren’t defined by our bodies, so why are we defining women as feminist or nonfeminist based on what they do with their bodies?

I will say that there is not enough safeguarding in the cosmetic industry. The fact that you don’t need a license or any medical training to inject fillers in the U.K. is shockingly lax. The fact that people can get addicted to cosmetic surgery and there is nothing in place to screen these people and get them help is criminal. I’ve seen documentaries where a person is clearly addicted and the cosmetic surgeon just keeps on taking their money and doing surgeries.

I don’t agree in seeing cosmetic surgery as a capitalism problem. It is a technological advance that originated as reconstructive surgery to help badly disfigured soldiers and civilians from wars. Boob jobs were first done for women who had mastectomies. It was not developed with intent to create a mass market in beautification, but for charitable purpose.

[BrandineDelRoy]

@baldafrique

I know a woman who was constantly bullied and abused for the size of her nose - by strangers - life shouldn't be that way but many people are absolute dicks. I think she completely made the right decision having a rhinoplasty before her self esteem was even more shattered and her mental health twatted.

I had rhinoplasty for that reason. I wasn't constantly ridiculed but it was an issue. I thought of it as wanting to have a feature that got less attention.

[SmokedDuck]

I think it's really problematic, and not just from a feminist perspective, but from the POV of how as a society we think about appearance. It affects women especially though.

Like a pp said, I think there will be always be some sense of beauty and attraction that humans pay attention to. It's inevitable, and some people will always struggle with feeling unattractive.

But what people seem not to notice is that this stays pretty standard no matter what kinds of interventions, surgical or otherwise, we involve. If a society adopts nose jobs, or botox, or hair dye, or whatever, al it does really is up the effort and level of "beauty" required for all. Not that botox and such is common in some areas, more and more women see the look it creates as normal, and feel the need to get it.

So in the end I think it is lose lose. Probably it is unrealistic to try and tell people not to do anything for beauty, and it's often a sign of depression when people are totally uninterested in how they look, but actually getting a dangerous surgery seems to take the race to the bottom to a new level. I think it's a line we shouldn't cross.

Obviously there will be a need to draw a line between what is cosmetic and what is corrective, but I think that is doable. I think it's actually unethical for doctors to perform cosmetic procedures, it's putting people's health at risk without a medical need, so outside their proper role.

[TuvoknotSpock]

I'm going to hold my hands up and say I consider myself a feminist but had a boob job purely because I wanted one.

I don't make decisions in a vacuum and I'm sure my decision to wear makeup/wear short skirts etc are influenced by millenia of patriarchy. But right now these things make me happy and I'm going to Do what makes me feel good tbh.

[Thelnebriati]

As usual I need to start by defining the terms, so I have an issue with the OP which confuses cosmetic and reconstructive surgery.
Botox for movement disorders doesn't even fall under 'reconstructive'. It temporarily allows for a nearly normal range of movement, if you are lucky. Its not cosmetic, any more than a wheelchair or crutch.

I can't get worked up about cosmetic surgery that creates a look that is within the range of biologically normal, and I consider extreme surgery to be a mental health issue.

[ArabellaScott]

• Also, no, it's not about direct advertising or formula companies, that was my point. The fact that women are now so isolated from other women, that communities have become so broken up, that healthcare is so patchy, and it requires 2 wages to actually buy a house, for example, are all things that can indirectly affect b-fing. But I did say I didn't want to derail ... it's a big topic. Books have been written on it!

[Bigwave]

I've had botox and some minor eye surgery for cosmetic reasons, just because I wanted to for my own vanity reasons of preferring how I look.. I'm a lesbian so certainly not bothered about the male gaze.

[ArabellaScott]

I said 'fail' in response to the OP describing it as such, MissBarbary.

I'm sorry you had a difficult time and judgemental attitudes from those who should have supported you. My concern is that women, mothers and babies all are helped and supported to do what works best for them.

[MissBarbary]

I can get very angry at how women are failed by our society

I get very angry at feminists peddling twaddle about falling at breastfeeding. I note you retracted it but your go to word was "fail". I did not give up breastfeeding because of advertising and pressure from formula companies- I did however persist with it longer than was good for my mental health because of pressure from judgmental health visitors.

[ArabellaScott]

@LadyBuffOfBuffdonia

Formula is definitely pushed over breastfeeding in some places more than others. In some countries breastfeeding is positively discouraged.
Fed is best. But breastfeeding does bring home what they are actually for.

I don't want to derail your thread, OP, but it's not just that formula companies push formula. The mother-baby dyad is threatened by capitalism - we are actively encouraged to break that bond. Sometimes this is unintentional or done without awareness. Sometimes it is calculated.

It's a complex and delicate biological process that has been poorly understood and is threatened by various physical/medical/economic issues, and social attitudes.

I can get very angry at how women are failed by our society, and how they are always encouraged to find the site of failure as themselves or their own bodies, instead of looking at the complex interplay of issues that make some things very, very difficult.

[StrangeLookingParasite]

Oh no doubt the counter to that is that I'm just brain washed to think that way, I'm not enlightened, blah, blah.

In my opinion it's not brain washing, but how did we, (and I definitely include myself in this), arrive at evaluating what we think looks good? How did those decisions come about?

It's a difficult one - do we change ourselves, or expect the world to change?

[DIshedUp]

I think its quite a fine line tbh between what is cosmetic and necessary. This is interesting to me as its quite related to the field I work in and am working towards

A breast reduction because of back pain is not cosmetic. Neither is botox for reducing muscle spasticity tbh.

Reconstruction following burns is acceptable, and following cancer presumably? What about trauma such as broken cheek bone, is that acceptable? Facial weakness as a result of nerve damage? All of these things are really cosmetic. Then what about braces or orthognathic/jaw surgery? Thats often cosmetic but the difference between someone pre surgery and post is incredible.

What about cosmetic dentistry? Dental implants? If someone looses a front tooth is it acceptable to place a bridge? Thats cosmetic

What about minor problems resulting from say cancer or trauma. Are fillers acceptable when the problem is caused by cancer? Why not then if someone is born with it? What about fixing a broken nose, that is really cosmetic

The problem is is actually a lot of these procedures men get in equal measures to women, but you are only counting procedures women get. There is a vast range of cosmetic procedures out there but they are often only counted as 'vain' or problematic if its something women tend to get

On the other side of the coin its very easy to get entrapped in the cycle of surgery, some people just having relentless procedures to chase an ideal thats not really possible. Personally I would not get botox or fillers or breast enlargement or any sort of cosmetic surgery but then I don't really have anything that massively differs from the norm. If I had something obvious then I probably would

[NotJustAPairOfBoobs]

I’ve often considered having a boob reduction to avoid men looking at me/them. Now I’m nearing retirement it’s not worth it, but I wish I had when I was younger, I’d be earning a lot more money if I had as I’d have had much more chance of being judged for my expertise. Male attitudes and comments about my boobs have blighted my life.

[Erikrie]

Plastic surgery isn't for me. But I would never police what is good or bad when it comes to another woman deciding what to do with her body.

[LadyBuffOfBuffdonia]

I like cosmetic surgery to be available, but I dont want it advertised or promoted.

This would be a good tack.

[IShouldBeSoLurky]

I haven’t had surgery but have botox, fillers and brow micro blading. I am well aware of my reasons: vanity/internalised misogyny. I know it’s problematic in the grand scheme of things but it lets me get on with my life without wasting energy worrying about those aspects of myself. And where do you draw the line? Make up? Colouring your hair? Shaving your legs?

[Branleuse]

I think its quite nuanced. I like cosmetic surgery to be available, but I dont want it advertised or promoted. I dislike the idea of certain surgeries that do more harm than good and can be disabling, but I dont know where youd draw the line at consumer choice and who makes the decisions over other peoples bodies if not themselves.

I dont like that I felt I needed my breasts operated on, but it improved my sense of wellbeing more than i thought it would and that still remains years later. I dont like the fact that I dont feel like I can just be open about it to friends and family (hardly told anybody and noone commented) and yet if I was open, would that normalise it too much for my daughter?

[BeanieSue]

I think this is a really difficult topic. Some people really suffer because of the way parts of their body look and the remarks and for some the bullying that comes with it. I don't think it's possible to draw some sort of line where it is ok or not ok to get procedures done. Of course the feeling we have about our bodies and the responses we have to them are shaped by society's attitudes to them. But how do we get round that and some people are better equipped to cope with the comments or to deal with their own feelings than other are.

[LadyBuffOfBuffdonia]

Formula is definitely pushed over breastfeeding in some places more than others. In some countries breastfeeding is positively discouraged.
Fed is best. But breastfeeding does bring home what they are actually for.

[MissBarbary]

I think it's worth remembering that there is a huge industry in whose interests it is to make sure that women fail at breastfeeding

You mean the makers of formula? What do you suggest then- banning that industry?

I mean if one couldn’t buy formula no women would ever fail at breastfeeding.