University staff given list of banned 'microinsults' they cannot say to trans people

[ChristinaXYZ]

From the Telegraph. the last para make you want to weep -

A Newcastle University spokesman said: "We want our campus to be a welcoming and safe place for everyone who studies, works or visits here, regardless of gender, race, class, age or disability."

But it would seem they are not bothered about making people feel welcome regardless of sex, as they don't even mention it.

How can we b so smug as to not realise that in years to come we will be horrified by aspects of what is now considered normal behaviour.

Historians call this "presentism." I regularly remind my students about it.

@AllThatisSolid

Given that most women have experienced sexual abuse or harassment by that age, and universities offer very little comeback or protection, and students away from home are more vulnerable than previously, and reporting of rape and sexual assault is very low - and certainly from what I remember of university myself - it is likely to be much higher.

I think a PP was challenging the idea of widespread sexual assault of women at universities.

I've been an academic in UK HE for 30 years. I work in a pretty progressive area of the humanities, and have worked in several institutions - not all big city based, and in different geographic areas of the UK. Over that whole period, almost every year, at least one of my female tutees discloses to me that she's been raped.

She then generally goes on to say she doesn't want me to take any action (I offer), and that maybe she was at fault by getting drunk, or talking to a man, or going to a club, etc etc etc.

I have around 30 tutees a year, about 75% female. So do the maths.

And I don't suppose that my experience is terribly unusual - in fact, I'd say most women academics - if they are halfway good listeners & a bit sympathetic - have similar experiences. We also regularly hear about the routine sexual harassment they experience at student nights in clubs, in pubs, and on campus.

These young women have already internalised rape culture: they know that it's highly unlikely their assaulters will be punished o stopped. They've already internalised the victim-blaming of patriarchy.

The other sobering thing to think about is that sexual harassment & sexual assaults, up to & including rape, are rarely strangers. These young women are assaulted by male students.

And it's our DSs who are doing the harassment & assault.

Thank you AllThatisSolid

Most of us know why women and girls don't share the reality of what happens to them - they're not believed. Incredible that the torrent of disclosures from girls and women (even in this week's Noel Clarke case) can pass some women by. Shame on them.

I said upthread I can understand people being annoyed about having to say you're either a man or a woman. I can understand not getting pronouns.

What I can't understand is claiming you will have to avoid trans people as to not use or (a direct quote from the policies) or the things I posted which are also part of the policy.

The issue is that people do 'get' pronouns, & are not prepared to mangle the English language.

The bigger issue is that people can avoid whoever they like, for whatever reason they like.

If I am 'avoidant' of somebody because we have very different opinions, will inevitably clash & I'd rather skip the aggro, that's a perfectly reasonable position.

persistentwoman and mariel thank you for the helpful replies. I can't see it being too much of an issue for me since I try to keep myself to myself. The 'avoidance' part does worry me though. Avoidance has been the one tactic I have been grateful to have with regards to this nonsense ideology.

There is a huge difference between sexual assault and rape though

The overall definition of sexual or indecent assault is an act of physical, psychological and emotional violation in the form of a sexual act, inflicted on someone without their consent. It can involve forcing or manipulating someone to witness or participate in any sexual acts.

Not all cases of sexual assault involve violence, cause physical injury or leave visible marks. Sexual assault can cause severe distress, emotional harm and injuries which can't be seen – all of which can take a long time to recover from. This is why we use the term 'assault', and treat reports just as seriously as those of violent, physical attacks.

^from the met police website, assault can be as traumatic as rape
And I'd still be interested to see stats for this year
This years stats will of course be out next year, I expect them to be lower because reasons. But not much lower, rapists are gonna rape.

With any other type of person who made unreasonable narcissistic demands of us, it would be perfectly appropriate to avoid them. But not with trans identifying people. This is just a way of further eroding women's boundaries and stopping us from saying 'no'.

@VickyEadieofThigh

You are not unable to. Since this side of the argument likes science, scientifically that is a lie. You don't want to. Which is fine.

What? A "lie" that I cannot make myself believe something?

I can't make myself believe a range of faith-based things (Christianity, Islam, scientology). What on Earth are you suggesting here?

My comparison with those in history who have compelled speech and belief was very appropriate, it seems.

Yes I’m curious about this as well

I care more about the feelings of human beings than being RIGHT,.as is the case for moste people outside of MN.

Why don't you care about the feelings of the human beings who find it cognitively draining and uncomfortable to tell lies?

Are you unable to empathise with people who find lying difficult? Why is that? Most people find lying difficult to some degree. There are exceptions to this rule, but if you are one of the exceptions, you should be aware it's generally not considered to be a good thing. Don't assume other people are like you.

But I don't think that the rape stats ,.rape stats alone, across universities are alarming. I'm sorry. I don't.

So @Butwasitherdriveway just how many women assaulted/raped do you think is "alarming" then? I mean - are the first 20 or 30 just not worth worrying about? Is the 100th woman raped the one that makes you think this is alarming?

For example:

I did the sort of degree that was dominated by Posh Boys. Perfectly nice chaps in class.

However, if I spotted them in the Union Bar, I'd give them a cheery 'hi Hugo & Teddy & Nigel!' wave & go & sit with my other friends.

Because by pint #5 they'd be beerily & competitively hitting on me, by pint #7 we'd be furiously arguing about whether hunting should be banned, & by pint #9 Nigel would generally have his pants down & be trying to start a 'who can ram the most small change under his foreskin' challenge.

So, y'know, I avoided them socially. Whilst quite happy to thrash out the finer points of Thucydides with them in a seminar.

Avoidant behaviour is human behaviour.

@IAmFleshIAmBone

With any other type of person who made unreasonable narcissistic demands of us, it would be perfectly appropriate to avoid them. But not with trans identifying people. This is just a way of further eroding women's boundaries and stopping us from saying 'no'.

I think its often not the trans people making the demands but the juggernaut movement propelling them along. As has been said on this thread, this kind of policing makes life bloody difficult for a lot of trans folk.

The 'avoidance' part does worry me though. Avoidance has been the one tactic I have been grateful to have with regards to this nonsense ideology.

Yes I think that's the case for many people.

I think its often not the trans people making the demands but the juggernaut movement propelling them along. As has been said on this thread, this kind of policing makes life bloody difficult for a lot of trans folk.

I don't doubt this. I have nothing against people who identify as trans. But the way things are currently I would be very wary of getting into a friendship with one of those people. Which is really sad. The extremism ruins things for everyone.

Men can't be women = objective fact based on biology
Hair looks like shit = subjective based on personal opinion

As someone with autism and black-and-white thinking, I can understand the difference between the two.

I think most people can, to be honest.

Corvus

I think most people can, to be honest.

Agreed, I was just pointing out that when I say I find it hard to lie, I mean about indisputable facts. As the poster who seemed to be picking flaws in everyone's arguments seems to think I must 'tell lies' all the time 🤔 I think that poster was being wilfully ignorant and as I've seen them acting the same on other threads I will be ingoring from now on.

This is just a way of further eroding women's boundaries and stopping us from saying 'no'.

Exactly this.

Oh and has anyone got anything about them banning Newton?

The Newton is an SI unit how on earth are they going to change the name or ban it? Really need to see a link or something about this!

This is both bonkers and chilling at the same time. You’re going to need Handmaid’s Tale-style phrases like ‘under his eye’ in order to communicate around trans people.

I can see this as a distinct possibility.

The issue is that people do 'get' pronouns, & are not prepared to mangle the English language.

There are compelling arguments as to why may be important on a subliminal/safety critical level. I'm no scientist, but training our brains to accept something our eyes know on some level isn't the case, is potentially overriding the safety reflexes many women employ so automatically they're not even necessarily conscious of doing so.

I understand those arguments, and also comprehend that no matter what concessions people give they are never enough (cf ''Meet me halfway said the unreasonable man...'). But as to how others choose to refer to themselves, I will respect whatever pronouns they ask me to use.

My hill to die on is when the same constraints are imposed on my rights to self-definition. I ain't no 'swimming vagina-haver'. I don't want to announce 'my' pronouns - that's if I can be said to be in possession of them - given the discrimination women routinely face in the workplace when they draw attention to my sex. When it comes to that issue: 'cis' I do not accept. I've spent most of my adult life fighting regressive gender stereotypes: the hell am I going to adopt them now because it makes others feel more 'comfortable' at my expense.

The bigger issue is that people can avoid whoever they like, for whatever reason they like.

In some workplaces this isn't possible; recollect this document is geared towards university staff, not students. What I would by no means do is permit incendiary discussion of a particularly toxic issue within my lecture space. And within that space, what I say goes. It's negotiable on the basis that such discussions can be too incendiary and potentially distressing for trans students. Nor do I believe only giving space to an accepted party line is conducive for productive discussion.

If I am 'avoidant' of somebody because we have very different opinions, will inevitably clash & I'd rather skip the aggro, that's a perfectly reasonable position.

I wish it were. In this context, even not wearing a rainbow lanyard or announcing pronouns could be seen to be avoidance, as could walking out of toileting facilities by anyone uncomfortable with sharing spaces with the opposite sex (irrespective of gender).

I'm aware a lot more of these documents are in the process of being drafted. It certainly isn't going to affect just Newcastle and Edinburgh.

The concept of 'avoidant behaviour' is very similar to the idea that, not only can words be literal violence but silence can be violence also. It all seems to be about controlling the speech and the actions of other people and really should have no place in universities.

Yes, it's chilling.

@IAmFleshIAmBone

Men can't be women = objective fact based on biology Hair looks like shit = subjective based on personal opinion

As someone with autism and black-and-white thinking, I can understand the difference between the two.

As someone similar, I further note that only people who know me well, ask me to comment on their hairstyle or anything else! That means that as a self-selecting group, they're perfectly prepared for me to say exactly what I think!

There's really no comparison between that and training oneself to consistently use a different set of pronouns in all conversations.

*As someone similar, I further note that only people who know me well, ask me to comment on their hairstyle or anything else! That means that as a self-selecting group, they're perfectly prepared for me to say exactly what I think!

There's really no comparison between that and training oneself to consistently use a different set of pronouns in all conversations.*

Quite! And as I'm giving an opinion, I know that my opinion is not fact. So it doesn't feel like lying to me if I say 'your hair looks fine' and secretly think it doesn't. Although most of the time I either won't comment or like you, they will know to probably expect to hear what I really think.

I really don't get the comparison at all, I think it's totally disingenuous.

'A leaked copy of the ‘draft inclusive curriculum development’ to ‘decolonise’ the engineering curriculum at Sheffield University warns that Newton may have benefited from ‘colonial-era activity’. Apparently, the engineering faculty at Sheffield will decolonise its curriculum in an effort to tackle ‘long-standing conscious and unconscious biases’ among students, to challenge ‘Eurocentric’ and ‘white saviour’ approaches to science and maths, and to promote ‘inclusive design’. '

????!!!!????

I wouldn't hire an engineer from Sheffield if Newtons have been erased

It will severely limit their career opportunities and work if they use a different term to the accepted SI unit/ or ? decide that they are an irrelevant unit in science