Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

University staff given list of banned 'microinsults' they cannot say to trans people

545 replies

ChristinaXYZ · 01/05/2021 12:34

From the Telegraph. the last para make you want to weep -

A Newcastle University spokesman said: "We want our campus to be a welcoming and safe place for everyone who studies, works or visits here, regardless of gender, race, class, age or disability."

But it would seem they are not bothered about making people feel welcome regardless of sex, as they don't even mention it.

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/05/2021 16:32

If they do, then that's compelled speech and I will resist it. Compelled speech makes me very uncomfortable. Why doesn't that matter?

Because women's feelings don't count.

IAmFleshIAmBone · 02/05/2021 16:32

*The inability to lie argument infuriates me.

Do you tell your friends their hair looks awful, their dress doesn't suit them or they've put weight on*

They don't ask me. I'm under no obligation to say any of those things. Plus they are opinion-based (other than the weight thing I guess if I was in a position of weighing my friends regularly and monitoring their weight).

Butwasitherdriveway · 02/05/2021 16:32

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I'm scrolling your posts, so I'm not reading anything you have to say, Driveway. Don't bother.
Think I suggested that two posts ago.
Butwasitherdriveway · 02/05/2021 16:34

Women, women, women.

😴

I assume a woman who is identifying as he doesn't have any rights for people to respect their feelings.

Women don't matter as a tagline is pointless because outside the world of MN , there are many women who aren't egotistical enough to choose to avoid trans rather than use the pronoun.

If you don't like the policy, don't get a job there. Don't engage in the services (and equally don't expect help and support from any trans community in the uni).

Butwasitherdriveway · 02/05/2021 16:35

@IAmFleshIAmBone

*The inability to lie argument infuriates me.

Do you tell your friends their hair looks awful, their dress doesn't suit them or they've put weight on*

They don't ask me. I'm under no obligation to say any of those things. Plus they are opinion-based (other than the weight thing I guess if I was in a position of weighing my friends regularly and monitoring their weight).

You know the point I was making. Sometimes we lie.
persistentwoman · 02/05/2021 16:35

Yet we are throwing young people into these toxic universities at great financial cost to them. We already have considerable evidence about the poor quality pastoral care in universities available to students and now they face narcissistic vitriolic groups with privileged access to policy development ,writing policies that have the potential to not only silence the whole student body but to potentially wreck an individual's academic career.
Would that universities were as bothered about the tackling the shameful rates of sexual assault on campus.

Butwasitherdriveway · 02/05/2021 16:36

@persistentwoman

Yet we are throwing young people into these toxic universities at great financial cost to them. We already have considerable evidence about the poor quality pastoral care in universities available to students and now they face narcissistic vitriolic groups with privileged access to policy development ,writing policies that have the potential to not only silence the whole student body but to potentially wreck an individual's academic career. Would that universities were as bothered about the tackling the shameful rates of sexual assault on campus.
Who is the narcissist?

The young person wanting to be he not she , or the person who doesn't believe in trans so will treat people however they like?

Butwasitherdriveway · 02/05/2021 16:38

Who would even want to say these things?

saying "you’re either man or a woman", "you’re just dressing for effect" or uttering "you’re just trying to be special

Certainly not decent human beings.

VickyEadieofThigh · 02/05/2021 16:39

Who is the narcissist? The young person wanting to be he not she , or the person who doesn't believe in trans so will treat people however they like?

I've been singularly unable to 'make' myself believe something I do not believe.

Those trying to compel the speech of unbelievers are following in a long, historical tradition.

ThatNeverHappenedAgain · 02/05/2021 16:40

Pulled into shadows?

You are being so offensive.

Women aren’t just pulled into shadows. They go out on dates with young men who seem perfectly nice. They get drunk with someone who they thought was a friend but it turns out wanted something much more. They agree to just stay over with a friend and wake up with them on top of them. They get drugs slipped into their drinks. They start snogging, and then the person they kiss just gets “carried away” and “thought you were into it”. They get drunk and wake up sore with a big hole where the end of the night was.

This isn’t about some crazed rapist lurking in an alleyway. This is about men knowing they will just get away with it.

Stop being so fucking offensive.

Butwasitherdriveway · 02/05/2021 16:40

@VickyEadieofThigh

Who is the narcissist? The young person wanting to be he not she , or the person who doesn't believe in trans so will treat people however they like?

I've been singularly unable to 'make' myself believe something I do not believe.

Those trying to compel the speech of unbelievers are following in a long, historical tradition.

You are not unable to. Since this side of the argument likes science, scientifically that is a lie.

You don't want to. Which is fine.

allmywhat · 02/05/2021 16:40

It's a point that we regularly 'lie' is go against our self indulgent reality... It's not requiring you to lie... Sometimes we lie

Someone seems rather confused about what's a lie and what isn't.

A loose relationship with the truth is not a moral virtue. The type of person who doesn't care about the truth is in no position to dish out advice to people who do care about it.

persistentwoman · 02/05/2021 16:41

IAmFleshIAmBone

Hopefully you'll find that your experience is better than this thread suggests. Most students seem to ignore the activists and get on with enjoying university life. And after this last awful year, I know you'll all be relieved for normal life to restart.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 02/05/2021 16:42

Those trying to compel the speech of unbelievers are following in a long, historical tradition.

Indeed. That of the cult.

Butwasitherdriveway · 02/05/2021 16:42

@ThatNeverHappenedAgain

Pulled into shadows?

You are being so offensive.

Women aren’t just pulled into shadows. They go out on dates with young men who seem perfectly nice. They get drunk with someone who they thought was a friend but it turns out wanted something much more. They agree to just stay over with a friend and wake up with them on top of them. They get drugs slipped into their drinks. They start snogging, and then the person they kiss just gets “carried away” and “thought you were into it”. They get drunk and wake up sore with a big hole where the end of the night was.

This isn’t about some crazed rapist lurking in an alleyway. This is about men knowing they will just get away with it.

Stop being so fucking offensive.

Yes.

But what does that have to do with university campuses?!

That is my point.

Rape happens between couples. Between friends. Between people they know.

It is very rare for complete random attacks to happen on campus, so that's what I have am issue with being peddled.

Ie youngsters being scared to go to uni campuses because of this , when they are no more at risk on a night out after work in their home town? Don't you see?

I'm not being 'fucking offensive'. I object.tl the university narrative.

AllThatisSolid · 02/05/2021 16:43

Given that most women have experienced sexual abuse or harassment by that age, and universities offer very little comeback or protection, and students away from home are more vulnerable than previously, and reporting of rape and sexual assault is very low - and certainly from what I remember of university myself - it is likely to be much higher.

I think a PP was challenging the idea of widespread sexual assault of women at universities.

I've been an academic in UK HE for 30 years. I work in a pretty progressive area of the humanities, and have worked in several institutions - not all big city based, and in different geographic areas of the UK. Over that whole period, almost every year, at least one of my female tutees discloses to me that she's been raped.

She then generally goes on to say she doesn't want me to take any action (I offer), and that maybe she was at fault by getting drunk, or talking to a man, or going to a club, etc etc etc.

I have around 30 tutees a year, about 75% female. So do the maths.

And I don't suppose that my experience is terribly unusual - in fact, I'd say most women academics - if they are halfway good listeners & a bit sympathetic - have similar experiences. We also regularly hear about the routine sexual harassment they experience at student nights in clubs, in pubs, and on campus.

These young women have already internalised rape culture: they know that it's highly unlikely their assaulters will be punished o stopped. They've already internalised the victim-blaming of patriarchy.

The other sobering thing to think about is that sexual harassment & sexual assaults, up to & including rape, are rarely strangers. These young women are assaulted by male students.

And it's our DSs who are doing the harassment & assault.

CorvusPurpureus · 02/05/2021 16:43

I don't think anyone wants to say those things, Driveway, & I think you know that.

But if I'm required to lie, then I won't. I'll avoid using 3rd person pronouns all day long.

But we've done this conversation & you acknowledged that you had a bit of a bee in your bonnet & were off to reflect on your aggressive behaviour online.

You can't compel other people's beliefs, & attempting to compel their speech simply never ends well.

Butwasitherdriveway · 02/05/2021 16:43

@allmywhat

It's a point that we regularly 'lie' is go against our self indulgent reality... It's not requiring you to lie... Sometimes we lie

Someone seems rather confused about what's a lie and what isn't.

A loose relationship with the truth is not a moral virtue. The type of person who doesn't care about the truth is in no position to dish out advice to people who do care about it.

I care more about the feelings of human beings than being RIGHT,.as is the case for moste people outside of MN.
Butwasitherdriveway · 02/05/2021 16:45

@CorvusPurpureus

I don't think anyone wants to say those things, Driveway, & I think you know that.

But if I'm required to lie, then I won't. I'll avoid using 3rd person pronouns all day long.

But we've done this conversation & you acknowledged that you had a bit of a bee in your bonnet & were off to reflect on your aggressive behaviour online.

You can't compel other people's beliefs, & attempting to compel their speech simply never ends well.

That is a direct quote from Edinburghs list - you know the micro aggressions everyone is losing their head over.

Corvus, we did have that conversation, but this is a completely different topic.

I said upthread I can understand people being annoyed about having to say you're either a man or a woman. I can understand not getting pronouns.

What I can't understand is claiming you will have to avoid trans people as to not use or (a direct quote from the policies) or the things I posted which are also part of the policy.

Erikrie · 02/05/2021 16:45

I was attacked on campus as a student. I was certainly not the only one amongst my friendship group.

IAmFleshIAmBone · 02/05/2021 16:45

Men can't be women = objective fact based on biology
Hair looks like shit = subjective based on personal opinion

As someone with autism and black-and-white thinking, I can understand the difference between the two.

persistentwoman · 02/05/2021 16:46

Just to counter the denial of the reality of rape and some of the offensive myths being spouted on this thread:

www.reuters.com/article/britain-women-rape-idUKL5N2ER4P8

www.itv.com/news/2021-04-14/revealed-the-scale-of-sexual-harassment-and-assault-at-the-uks-universities

CorvusPurpureus · 02/05/2021 16:46

I care more about the feelings of human beings than being RIGHT,.as is the case for moste people outside of MN.

But you're quite selective about whose feelings you care about, & apparently quite determined to be 'RIGHT'.

VickyEadieofThigh · 02/05/2021 16:47

You are not unable to. Since this side of the argument likes science, scientifically that is a lie. You don't want to. Which is fine.

What? A "lie" that I cannot make myself believe something?

I can't make myself believe a range of faith-based things (Christianity, Islam, scientology). What on Earth are you suggesting here?

My comparison with those in history who have compelled speech and belief was very appropriate, it seems.

ThatNeverHappenedAgain · 02/05/2021 16:48

Do micro aggressions only happen in university? Are they only looking at things which ONLY happen in university, or at things that happen in university?
Are you really suggesting that universities should only attempt to...
Ah forget it.

Your arguments don’t rise above “I know you are, but what am I?”

I need a bun and some berries.

Swipe left for the next trending thread