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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

“You’re a feminist? So you hate men?”

63 replies

Lessthanaballpark · 01/05/2021 08:48

Imagine that you’re just chatting with friends, someone pegs that you’re a feminist and says this? What would you say?

This happens a fair bit as I work with lots of men who are generally lovely but a bit on the backlashy side. The “I’m all for equality but it’s gone too far” side. You know the type I mean Grin

How would you respond? Without killing the mood of the nice conversation. I usually just laugh and say “X, you’ve known me years and you know I love all of you losers”

But I get a bit fed up because it’s such a wilful misinterpretation and I want something witty but articulate...

OP posts:
Echobelly · 01/05/2021 10:46

'I'm a feminist because people still say things like that'

Lessthanaballpark · 01/05/2021 10:49

Oh you gorgeous people. Thanks for your replies.
It’s so bloody tiresome, least of all because I have a reputation for being soft so they must know I don’t hate them.

I’m more alarmed by your claim that these colleagues are ‘lovely’ but ‘backlashy’. That’s not lovely, that’s misogyny.

I know what you mean but that’s kind of the problem. This dismissal of feminism as man-hating is so normalised that even otherwise nice men believe it.

OP posts:
Thelnebriati · 01/05/2021 11:10

Play them at their own game and give the Stoic response. No eyeroll, no sarcasm, just a plain answer;
''If you say so''.

They have a choice to accept that or continue to goad, at which point they show their hand.

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 01/05/2021 11:13

Tedious 🙄

Lessthanaballpark · 01/05/2021 11:17

Thelnebriati

Play them at their own game and give the Stoic response. No eyeroll, no sarcasm, just a plain answer;
''If you say so”

I’m practising that right now! I need to practise nonchalance. I care too much about feminism to allow it to be misunderstood but I doubt any explanation is going to be met with “Oh Lessthan! You’ve opened my mind, thanks for correcting my misconception Smile!”..

OP posts:
Thehawki · 01/05/2021 11:18

Just stare at them directly and say ‘Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them’. Just see if they try to argue, that will show you if they’re nice or not.

Timestablesaretables · 01/05/2021 11:20

Yes, absolutely!

DentonsFringeArnottsWaistcoat · 01/05/2021 11:22

I know what you mean but that’s kind of the problem. This dismissal of feminism as man-hating is so normalised that even otherwise nice men believe it
Well, they’re not nice then, are they? Honestly, I don’t know if it’s because I’m about to be 50, but just lately I’ve found I really don’t give a shit. A year or so ago, I’d probably be like you, looking for a way to explain it to these ‘nice’ men who don’t get it. But now, I don’t care if they don’t get, their opinion is irrelevant to me. I’d be answering that question with a flat ,Yes, and walking away. I have no energy or inclination to debate with stupidity or wilful ignorance.

StrictlyAFemaleFemale · 01/05/2021 11:27

I usually say no just the patriarchy.

lazylinguist · 01/05/2021 11:38

This dismissal of feminism as man-hating is so normalised that even otherwise nice men believe it.

The problem there is the word 'otherwise'. A man can be an arsehole in all kinds of single, individual, unpleasant ways and still allegedly be nice 'otherwise'. There's plenty of evidence of that all over the Relationships board. Equally, there are all kinds of unacceptable views that are normalised. It's no defence.

partyatthepalace · 01/05/2021 11:46

Actually I think wit is a mistake here, you just want a one liner explaining what feminism is and why it’s better for everyone. That will get home much better than banter,

VoleClock · 01/05/2021 11:52

How can equality go to far? You are either equal or you aren't.

Tanith · 01/05/2021 11:56

A feminist doesn’t think about men long enough to hate them.

ForgotAboutThis · 01/05/2021 11:56

"You murder two of us a week, it would be a surprise if we didn't hate you?"
Or more likely "I don't hate men, but I am terrified of them".

Lessthanaballpark · 01/05/2021 11:56

I’m about to be 50, but just lately I’ve found I really don’t give a shit. A year or so ago, I’d probably be like you, looking for a way to explain it to these ‘nice’ men who don’t get it.

I feel like I’m getting that way. I remember years ago at a party spending ages trying to convince this guy of all the reasons why feminism wasn’t anti-man and all the time he kept winding me up. I guess it was fun for him. Just annoyed me so much. You wouldn’t go up to any other group of people and accuse them in such a way but women are fair game I guess.

OP posts:
DentonsFringeArnottsWaistcoat · 01/05/2021 11:58

@VoleClock

How can equality go to far? You are either equal or you aren't.
Well, you know the old saying: When you’re accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression
DentonsFringeArnottsWaistcoat · 01/05/2021 11:59

OP, just remember you don’t owe anybody an explanation or a conversation.

CardinalLolzy · 01/05/2021 12:20

Nooo, "If you say so" is the worst non-argument ever! Please don't ever use it. It's actually saying that what this man says, goes.

I think it is important to raise awareness of the two women killed by men every week.

JustSpeculation · 01/05/2021 12:33

If you'll pardon a man's view on this:

I've spent forty years working in and managing such workplaces. If you give a witty or "bantery" response, then you're playing on their turf, accepting their rules. It becomes an exercise in oneupsmanship. You're dealing with men who genuinely believe that the world belongs to them, that boys have the right to be boys and do boyish things, and that they don't need to moderate their behaviour to accommodate other people beyond what they see as common politeness. And yes, such people can still be good, supportive colleagues and friends. They're wrong, not bad people.

My uncle used to run the Miner's Welfare (a social club for miners) back in the 60s in Mansfield. He once told me a story of a group of miners who would stand there, pint in hand, making jokes. The trick was to cap the last person's joke with a better comment of your own. They became so good at it, and achieved such a level of virtuosity, that they eventually spent the whole evening in absolute silence. No one dared say anything for fear of getting slapped down. Wit of that type is about power and alpha maleness in the group. As a woman, you can't win. You might get a reputation as a "good sort", and respect for it in a "she's one of the lads" way, but you are still acknowledging the workplace as a male space by playing a male game.

The only way to deal with it is to refuse to play the game. Just say "no", and nothing else unless you are asked in a spirit of genuine enquiry. Say it pleasantly, kindly and with empathy, but with a tone of absolute finality. Then move on.

The problem is that the men should not see the workplace as a space which belongs to them, but to the company. And sorting that problem out is a management issue, not one for the workforce to sort out amongst themselves. Talk about it with the boss. Unless you are the boss, of course.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/05/2021 12:42

The problem is that the men should not see the workplace as a space which belongs to them, but to the company. And sorting that problem out is a management issue, not one for the workforce to sort out amongst themselves

I agree with what you write. The problem should also not be individualised - there should be a broader move towards culture change so it does not happen.

Sophoclesthefox · 01/05/2021 12:55

That’s interesting, just and describes so accurately the behaviour of a group of male friends that I do a particular activity with. It’s that jostling for position, that one upmanship of put downs and bantz. I find it completely boring, and while I’ve tolerated it for years, I find myself less and less apt to hang out with that group.

JustSpeculation · 01/05/2021 13:18

@Sophoclesthefox

That’s interesting, just and describes so accurately the behaviour of a group of male friends that I do a particular activity with. It’s that jostling for position, that one upmanship of put downs and bantz. I find it completely boring, and while I’ve tolerated it for years, I find myself less and less apt to hang out with that group.
There are lots of men who find it equally boring. You tend to learn to ride with it without really taking part, or you end up as "Billy no mates".

What I've seen happen - to address spartacus point about culture change - is that it seems to have got worse. I'm not entirely sure of this, because I've spent so much of my life abroad, but my impression is that as the world of work has become more corporate over the past couple of decades, more organisations work on the principle of the "centralisation of responsibility", in an attempt to cut costs by having fewer highly paid managers centrally, and having lower management roles staffed with cheaper, and therefore less responsible and competent, people. Policy is decided centrally and then applied by staff at a lower level. This has focused lower management primarily on managing upwards, and means that the workforce is left largely to sort themselves out. So the powerful win.

Lessthanaballpark · 01/05/2021 13:51

What I've seen happen - to address spartacus point about culture change - is that it seems to have got worse.

I feel like there’s always been backlash, it’s just changed nature. When I think back to the late 90s, when I started out working, there was definitely this feeling of “political correctness gone too far” by people who would be considered conservative.

Now it’s the guys who are otherwise very left wing and “woke” (I hate to use it as an insult when it should be a good thing) but have a blind spot when it comes to women.

OP posts:
YetAnotherSpartacus · 01/05/2021 13:53

I think Just and Less are both right - merely talking about two different things.

SmokedDuck · 01/05/2021 13:59

Often when someone says something like this, I ask them why they'd think that. Not in a negative way, just like "what makes you think that?" If they can't answer they've kind of answered their own question but if they have a reason for thinking that, I would just respond to it.

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