‘White’ Feminism

[Sociallydistancedcocktails]

I was recently on a thread which got me thinking about this.

Do you think ‘white’ feminism exists?

And your thoughts on the article below. I am quoting an excerpt

“White feminism is a term that has been on the tip of everyone's tongue since actor Emma Watson addressed past criticisms of her feminism in statement to her book club about the topic in early January. Though it's difficult to find an exact definition for "white feminism," it has come to describe a not-quite-feminist mindset that doesn't take into account the ways the women of color experience sexism, and how it differs from the way white women experience it. Simply put, white feminism is for white women who don't want to examine their white privilege. The term "intersectional feminism," which stands in opposition to white feminism, was coined by civil rights advocate and law professor Kimberlé Crenshaw in 1989 to help describe the experiences of Black women who not only face sexism, but systemic racism.

Understanding the ways race, gender, and other factors (such as disability, class, or sexuality) intersect is crucial to making our feminism more effective and impactful”

www.bustle.com/p/what-is-white-feminism-here-are-7-sneaky-ways-it-shows-up-into-your-life-7921450

@BlackWaveComing

Seriously, fuck this toxicity coming over from the US.

Left wing feminism where I am has always involved actions aimed at alleviating disadvantage for Blak women, refugee women, poor women, disabled women. Literally never been involved in glass ceiling lean in 'white' actions.

Yes, the article is written for a British audience by Ruby Hamad: "a freelance writer and PhD candidate in media studies and post-colonial studies at UNSW, where she is researching media criticism and coverage of Arabs and the Middle East" so judging by the name that's also her ethnicity, but the idea for the article is from Luvvie Alayi: Luvvie Ajayi is a Nigerian American author, speaker, and digital strategist. So we have an original idea from a black American taken from an American cultural context, being written about by an Arabic Australian for a British readership. The examples she gives take place in Australia and the USA. Shouldn't she have chosen some examples from the UK if this is a thing here that we need to tackle? Why is there never any attempt to consider the million and one ways in which our countries cultures are completely different? Why are we always being asked to atone for the sins of racist American women?

*countries' cultures

Atielikerichardgere

The white women's tears thing.

I have such a massive massive fucking huge problem with that. It actually makes me really angry.

1. Women cry to get what they want. What???!!! What the fuck? This is the most misogynist infuriating load of stereotyping shit in the world. It ties into. Women are manipulative. Women lie. Women lie and manipulate to harm others. Women lie and manipulate and somehow produce tears on order and everyone stops what they're doing and says MY GOD A WOMAN IS UPSET!!! we must take everything she says as gospel and immediately beat up/ cast out/ arrest/ imprison/ sack etc whoever she says upset her immediately no questions asked....

Yes I get the USA thing. Yes I understand that the underlying racism that in eg the thing with the dog was real and happened. Different history. Different culture. Different police.

I'm English FFS. I don't go around bursting into tears. Nor do my friends. Or our families. We tend to be... Reserved. To a greater or lesser extent. For good or for bad.

Yes women do cry sometimes. Why? Because someone has done something. Usually a man. In my life the women I've seen cry (barring drunk ones) have been on the receiving end of obscene or personal insults, aggressive behaviour, physical assault. In a work context. Publically humiliated or belittled by a man.

No I'm not having it. The idea that women in the country I know, whatever their race age religion etc. Go around bursting into tears on purpose in order to get men to do stuff to other men is what MRA s come out with.

Not saying it never happens.

But.

If a woman or girls is crying then the vast vast majority of the time it's because she's genuinely upset/ and often tears of frustration at powerlessness.

Sorry rant.

This idea just taps into rape myths.

So in summary.

The UK is not the USA we are made up of 4 countries that are not the same, we have a different history, we have plenty of history of our own to discuss. A lot of which is eye wateringly awful... But not American history. If you want to talk to UK women about this then do the basics. Know your audience.

Intersectionality as a concept. Very useful. In the meaning it had when coined.

Oppression Olympics, divide and conquer, etc etc etc. Nope. Sorry. The original concepts have been bastardised and are being used to pit women against each other. Fuck off with that.

Is that a reasonable ish summary.

I think part of the issue with having to 'check your privilege' and thus not being allowed to criticize anything on a topic such as race is that it gives free license for people to get shit like this published. Any new fresh take on the hot button issues of the day is going to get published, no questions asked, no matter how diabolical. What you'll have at the Guardian is middle class Oxbridge graduates who have led quite sheltered lives and just desperate to virtue signal to absolve themselves of their guilt. They won't have any understanding of underprivileged people's lives, it won't even be in their frame of reference, so if they're told that this article will make black women's lives better they'll just go along with it.

NiceGerbil spot on

The people who actually care and are actually doing something are more interested in that than berating other people.

The fact is that loads of language has been nicked and is being chucked about stripped of the meaning.

Just had a random remember thing. Read George Orwell essays recently. In one he was talking about language and politics and etc. And bemoaning that the word 'nazi' was being used to mean 'person I disagree with'.

It was written in 1947...

Humans don't change.

I think part of the issue with having to 'check your privilege' and thus not being allowed to criticize anything on a topic such as race is that it gives free license for people to get shit like this published.

I think you're conflating two different issues there.

Nothing wrong with "checking your privilege" every now and again.
What has that got to do with "not being allowed to criticize on a topic such as race" though?

The white women's tears thing

I have such a massive massive fucking huge problem with that. It actually makes me really angry.

Why?
Genuine question, have you read up on Emmet Till for example?
Why, if so, if you know his story, why would you have a problem with that?
It actually makes me feel a little bit sick, to know that me as a white woman could turn on the tears and be automatically believed or defended.
Same goes with Central Park lady the other year (Amy Cooper) - she was in the "right" and defended, even though she was weaponising those tears on the other end of the phone, who would have no idea what was going on)
White tears is a thing.
I say this as a white person.
Why feel angry?

1. Women cry to get what they want. What???!!! What the fuck? This is the most misogynist infuriating load of stereotyping shit in the world. It ties into. Women are manipulative. Women lie. Women lie and manipulate to harm others. Women lie and manipulate and somehow produce tears on order and everyone stops what they're doing and says MY GOD A WOMAN IS UPSET!!! we must take everything she says as gospel and immediately beat up/ cast out/ arrest/ imprison/ sack etc whoever she says upset her immediately no questions asked....

On reading further, after commenting, I think you've definitely misunderstood what white tears means.

Different history. Different culture. Different police.

Maybe so, but definitely very similar attitudes.
What you're describing as tears and being angry about isn't the same behaviour.
Are you seriously suggesting that attitude doesn't apply here in the UK as you've only ever seen it play out in news articles in the US?
I'd say it does.
Maybe we're more covert about racism, hide it better, but it still absolutely, definitely is a thing, is real.

Quaagars my post explains my problem with it.

Happy to discuss where you disagree with my points.

Asi mentioned I do understand that in the USA it makes sense. I've read a fair bit about it.

This is the UK. I do not wish to discuss the USA. It's not my country culture or history.

This is the UK. I do not wish to discuss the USA. It's not my country culture or history.

Racism exists in both countries though.
Do you really believe it's not as big a problem here?
(Here being UK for clarity)
White tears is still a thing.
Not sure why the concept of white tears, regardless of what country you may or may not be in, would make you angry

Yes of course we have racism here. Plenty. The met are very good at killing black men while taking them into custody.

Your question seems to come from a place that assumes I have certain beliefs and attitudes. That's an assumption.

I want you to demonstrate to me that in the UK white women do the sort of stuff that woman in the park with the dog did. I want you to show me that white women in a UK context. Sometimes feel like getting black male strangers in trouble. And act on it.

And that a white woman (how does a phone operator know her race/ colour) will get the police- let's say the met as London is home to the majority of black people in the UK and they're my force- to react instantly in response to what is in USA almost a coded message. And that the response would not be the same if she said it was a man of any other race/ nationality) appearance/ age etc etc. EG an aggressive white teen with a pibull type dog. Etc etc

Convince me.

That it happens
That it's that specific
That the met would come out for any of it

You read my post and you don't understand why the idea that women will make themselves cry, and lie, to the police, to get random male strangers in trouble. Makes me angry.

Maybe read it again?

I don't think that in the US or the UK there are large numbers of white women weaponising tears against black women in the workplace.

What about out of the workplace.

I've only worked with about 3 black men in my whole career.

Which most definitely is down to racism somewhere/ multiple places along the long line from birth to retirement.

Oh sorry black women misread. Similar story but thinking I've worked with way more black women probably would need to have a good think over a long career to count and why would I.

This is a bit beside the point though.

I want convincing that white women in the UK can and do stuff like that woman with the dog in the USA and that it's a known thing. And that it only works with black men not any other men.

You see this detracts from having a decent conversation about the racism in the UK.

Because pressing women here to 'debate' things that are relevant in a different country etc is just annoying. I'm sure black women in America are more than capable of discussing these issues.

I don't see the point of it. I think probably it's a sort of... Dunno.

Like me going onto the CofE chat site and saying what about mass sexual abuse in X Christian population on the other side of the world. If I cared about sexual abuse I'd be asking them about the sexual abuse carried out by c of e people here iyswim.

So I suppose in that spirit I would ask quaagars their opinion on some things on topic.

What's your view on what happened with smiley culture?
Your feelings about the handling of mark Duggans death?

I want you to demonstrate to me that in the UK white women do the sort of stuff that woman in the park with the dog did. I want you to show me that white women in a UK context

Why, why does it matter whether you're doing it from the US or the UK?
You seriously saying if I was to turn it on here on the UK, people would be like "go away?"
As I said it's not as overt here. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen though, that racism doesn't exist.

I want convincing that white women in the UK can and do stuff like that woman with the dog in the USA and that it's a known thing
Of course they can... why do you need a specific example?
White tears is white tears regardless of what country you're in.
Are you saying it doesn't happen if you're not in the USA?
Racism isn't a fucking competition as to who does it best

You read my post and you don't understand why the idea that women will make themselves cry, and lie, to the police, to get random male strangers in trouble. Makes me angry.
Maybe read it again?
That's a whole different issue.
Nothing to do with skin colour.

You said
The white women's tears thing.
I have such a massive massive fucking huge problem with that. It actually makes me really angry

Random last paragraph there, dunno what happened

Because pressing women here to 'debate' things that are relevant in a different country etc is just annoying. I'm sure black women in America are more than capable of discussing these issues.

but....black women, and/or people from America comment on here all the time.
Or is that only allowed if it's a preferred and acceptable viewpoint?

Not convinced me.

Tell me how white women wesponise their tears in the UK against black men and the police react. Like in America.

Talk to me about some examples. Not if racism, in general. There's plenty of that. But of this particular cultural known norm.

Just saw your second post.

Not an answer.

Talk to me about this as a known thing in the UK. White women. Black men.

Talk to me about smiley culture.

You see this detracts from having a decent conversation about the racism in the UK.

White feminism is an issue though.
Why assume MN is UK based?
I know I've seen lots of posters welcomed in their opinions on FWR if they're from say USA or Australia over the years.
Since when is it a UK issue or not relevant?