‘White’ Feminism

[Sociallydistancedcocktails]

I was recently on a thread which got me thinking about this.

Do you think ‘white’ feminism exists?

And your thoughts on the article below. I am quoting an excerpt

“White feminism is a term that has been on the tip of everyone's tongue since actor Emma Watson addressed past criticisms of her feminism in statement to her book club about the topic in early January. Though it's difficult to find an exact definition for "white feminism," it has come to describe a not-quite-feminist mindset that doesn't take into account the ways the women of color experience sexism, and how it differs from the way white women experience it. Simply put, white feminism is for white women who don't want to examine their white privilege. The term "intersectional feminism," which stands in opposition to white feminism, was coined by civil rights advocate and law professor Kimberlé Crenshaw in 1989 to help describe the experiences of Black women who not only face sexism, but systemic racism.

Understanding the ways race, gender, and other factors (such as disability, class, or sexuality) intersect is crucial to making our feminism more effective and impactful”

www.bustle.com/p/what-is-white-feminism-here-are-7-sneaky-ways-it-shows-up-into-your-life-7921450

@BlackWaveComing
I’m not explaining it well. I recommend Painter’s book! Yes, trying to become a WASP I guess is part of it. Immigrants in various waves gradually gaining labour rights and thus identifying alongside the dominant group. My own experience of being in the USA was that people would definitely link themselves to my ethnicity (one much more than the other, interestingly) as something in their own background that they wanted to connect to, longed for, had nostalgic ideas last about etc. I think this is always a running joke for Europeans in the US, though I actually find it a bit cruel.

I agree that when you try to grab on to whiteness, it is in fact elusive. It’s definition is totally contingent on time, place and perception. That’s what happens when you look at it, and I suppose that’s what we want to happen. It might as well be a shorthand for oppression.

As I said before, I think it the problem is middle class white kids who've led very sheltered lives, have never mixed with and thus never been aware of the incredibly difficult odds underprivileged white kids are up against, shouting about 'white privilege' because it doesn't occur to them that white people can live lives so different to their own.

Yes this is a thing, and I dare say applies to non white people too, that they focus on middle class luxury beliefs that they identify with rather than the experience of the average person. I don't think it's exclusive to white people, although obviously these white kids you mention are often hugely cossetted and privileged and have never been told no in their lives, whereas I imagine non white people of a similar social class would have come up against prejudice at some point, even if they were more sheltered from its effects than other members of the same race or ethnic group.

@froggywentacourting
Great post. I’ve seen several racist things on MN as well but against my ethnicity. When Covid emerged in Wuhan, there were countless threads full of racist comments denigrating the Chinese, blaming Chinese people for the virus, and calling to “make China pay.” Constant unfounded claims that Chinese food practices were to blame for pandemics and the west must “take action to stop it before more pandemics killed us all”

Of course, I’d point out and report the posts but hardly ever were they taken down and the poster would just pivot and say, oh I wasn’t meaning ALL Chinese, I really am only talking about the Chinese government, or the Chinese communist party, etc. And I’d be dismissed and told that strident calls to “make the Chinese pay for this” were somehow not dangerous rhetoric that could incite violence? When obviously such rhetoric WAS inciting violence as evidenced by the surge in hate crimes against Asians who are or might be mistaken as of chinese ethnicity (Japanese, Korean, Taiwanese, Singaporean etc were also being attacked I guess because we look the same?).

[quote ATieLikeRichardGere]@BlackWaveComing
I’m not explaining it well. I recommend Painter’s book! Yes, trying to become a WASP I guess is part of it. Immigrants in various waves gradually gaining labour rights and thus identifying alongside the dominant group. My own experience of being in the USA was that people would definitely link themselves to my ethnicity (one much more than the other, interestingly) as something in their own background that they wanted to connect to, longed for, had nostalgic ideas last about etc. I think this is always a running joke for Europeans in the US, though I actually find it a bit cruel.

I agree that when you try to grab on to whiteness, it is in fact elusive. It’s definition is totally contingent on time, place and perception. That’s what happens when you look at it, and I suppose that’s what we want to happen. It might as well be a shorthand for oppression.[/quote]
OK, well, elusive definitions, shifting constellations etc, make it pretty hard to have a conversation about the material, which is all that I'm interested in. Which women and girls in my limited sphere are doing it tough and how can I help, given my limited resources. If that's oppressive feminism, it's a pretty flipping weird definition of oppressive.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I'd really appreciate hearing your issues. I see the value of intersectionality in framing solutions to practical problems of policy, but I don't see why one group necessarily has to see itself intersectionally when defining itself as a group. Really, this is an enormous and complex issue that I don't fully understand.

My issue isn't so much with the concept of intersectionality, and I completely agree with the idea of oppression being compounded. It's more the way in which it is used, and the way that commonly it denies that biological sex can be an axis of oppression, and should be trumped by "gender" including indistinguishably "gender identity" and following queer theory and gender identity ideology.

Thanks. I get the idea of compounded disadvantage, and oppression. But the concept of intersectionality relies on a specific view of identities, and an idea that society can only be described in terms of power and oppression. I'm not sure these two are enough to really take account of what it means to be human living with other humans. I have to go off and have a think.

@BlackWaveComing
I’m not sure we are totally disagreeing - I think we are both trying to move past the limitations imposed by “whiteness”.

My view is that I totally agree that I have white privilege such that I can move through the world without fear of, for example, police violence because of my name and appearance etc. And many other privileges for sure. Undeniable. I will totally believe people’s experiences of racism on this thread. I’m sure they happened and I think applying the label racism to them is fair.

Alongside that, there is a whole facet of my whiteness that isn’t accounted for because I’ve lived as white in three countries and it does NOT mean the same thing in each place, not even close. I’m not even sure it means the same thing in England and Wales. For example, in my one culture, I think my appearance is actually linked to both othering and sexual violence I’ve experienced. I think this is to do with the local social constructions of whiteness! So I think one of the best things I could do to move forward is really understand deeply how my perceived whiteness operates. Hence I think has to be included in the intersectionality to understand it. How does my whiteness interact with x? I don’t think this work has been completely done.

@GrumpyHoonMain I did wonder if you were indian-origin due to your username. Main hamesha bhi grumpy hun! Aur Hindi seek rahi hun. I am often able to pass as white and frequently get overlooked or ignored in favour of the male in the room, by both men and women of various backgrounds. Assumed that was because of my sex and the cultural favouring of men. Do you find that if it was you and a white woman, people would favour/listen to/approach the white woman?

@MorrisZapp I think Scotland is highly pertinent when it comes to race and intersectionality.

I mentioned this upthread as well
As you say the numbers of black people in Scotland are very low, and once you remove Glasgow and Edinburgh, are even smaller.
(The figure you gave will definitly change next year after the census, as the last decade has seen a large increase in African expats and refugees but again, mainly to the large cities)

Scotland has larger Chinese and SE Asian populations than a black one but both these groups are reasonably integrated and reasonably affluent

But once you get out to the schemes (council estates) in places like Saltcoats, Irving or New Cumnock there are very, very few poc

They do exist but most often as biracial kids with white mums

Compare two working class kids from the same village with the same income level, one white and one black. Who has it worse?

And to answer @froggywentacourting in regards to this situation, the black kid absolutely.
But there's a wrinkle in there up here if you look closely

In my experience it's the young black/mixed race boys who have it worse in these places
They get fetishised as drug dealers and "badmen", with the dominant youth culture pushing this idea in music and film
Whereas their sisters seem to do far better and have better examples and opportunities offered to them

Intersectionality, if used properly, is great at identifying these differences and situational influences
But it seems kneejerk "Intersectional Feminism" has neither the subtlety nor inclination to slow down and analysis deeply

Yes, there were loads of kids at my school of Asian descent. In the seventies I'm afraid the p word was fairly commonly heard as were insults based on dress, curry etc which must have been awful for those kids to deal with. I hope things have improved dramatically since then.

My old school mates have done well though, mostly entering professions or owning their own businesses, or their family's business. I think many of them will send their own kids to private schools.

The kids from school I know of who are now dead because of drug use, in prison, homeless or otherwise struggling to make their way independently are all white and mostly male.

Compare two working class kids from the same village with the same income level, one white and one black. Who has it worse?
Actually, this is really simplistic, as income level is only one factor. You have to compare and consider all the other ACEs too I posted earlier, including alcoholism, mental health issues, physical or emotional neglect, physical or sexual abuse etc in order to answer this question. That's the problem with intersectional approaches a lot of the time, they prioritise scrutiny of just a couple of factors but the rest which have an equal or greater influence on outcomes can be ignored.

[quote ATieLikeRichardGere]@BlackWaveComing
I’m not sure we are totally disagreeing - I think we are both trying to move past the limitations imposed by “whiteness”.

My view is that I totally agree that I have white privilege such that I can move through the world without fear of, for example, police violence because of my name and appearance etc. And many other privileges for sure. Undeniable. I will totally believe people’s experiences of racism on this thread. I’m sure they happened and I think applying the label racism to them is fair.

Alongside that, there is a whole facet of my whiteness that isn’t accounted for because I’ve lived as white in three countries and it does NOT mean the same thing in each place, not even close. I’m not even sure it means the same thing in England and Wales. For example, in my one culture, I think my appearance is actually linked to both othering and sexual violence I’ve experienced. I think this is to do with the local social constructions of whiteness! So I think one of the best things I could do to move forward is really understand deeply how my perceived whiteness operates. Hence I think has to be included in the intersectionality to understand it. How does my whiteness interact with x? I don’t think this work has been completely done.[/quote]
I'd find it self indulgent for me, personally, to spend much time thinking about how my cultural 'whiteness' is constructed. Given there is no hegemonic Whiteness anyway, so goodness only knows what I'd be trying to deconstruct. Or to what purpose. Seems theoretically interesting, but practically pointless.

Great post froggy

It’s not a privilege to not be subjected to police violence; it is a universal human right.

We should be fighting so that everyone has their rights, not claiming that not being subjugated by a tyrannical state is a privilege.

It’s not a privilege to not be subjected to police violence; it is a universal human right.

Well yes it should be but it's a privilege that some demographics don't have to worry about eg. being stopped and searched or indeed killed by the cops. Police brutality is barbaric - I'm grateful when I don't get followed around Boots.

It's not privileged to have human rights respected , it's a right denied to too many

It isn’t a privilege not to have to worry about that. Nobody should have to be in that position with regard to the state.

That is one of the problem of the privilege concept. It turns everything into a question of position compared to other people rather than supporting what was the liberal enlightenment project - that we want to live in a world where every human being should have rights, liberty and democracy.

Without that what is the basis of the ethical decisions that we are making? That it doesn’t matter if we are all being tortured and beaten as long as nobody has the privilege of being tortured slightly less horribly?

That is one of the problem of the privilege concept. It turns everything into a question of position compared to other people rather than supporting what was the liberal enlightenment project - that we want to live in a world where every human being should have rights, liberty and democracy.

Yes, I agree.

If you have one woman who was raped and another who was sexually assaulted, is it appropriate to say to the woman who was assaulted that she is 'privileged' because she wasn't raped? I think not, I'd find it deeply offensive. Even if I accept that rape is counted as worse in the eyes of the law and is treated as a more serious crime for that reason, to be 'only' sexually assaulted is not a privilege. Those talking about 'white feminism' and 'white privilege' often sound like this to me, because even if you are 'only' a white woman you are still subjected to male oppression. WOC will have additional prejudices and discrimination they have to deal with, but so will women with mental health issues, drug dependency, low income etc. I'm really not trying to diminish racism as an important factor, there are just so many others as well with significant effects on quality of life, and to tell seriously underprivileged white women they are privileged is turning them into the enemy, when they are the victims. It's divisive and a sure way to breed resentment rather than unity.

I think the point of calling it a privilege as opposed to a right is basically that this underscores that it’s something which you have that someone else doesn’t, and also that you might be someone with power to act to correct this. If you call it a right then it almost sounds like everyone has access to it, when in fact they don’t, even you just mean that everyone “should” have access to it.

Compare two working class kids from the same village with the same income level, one white and one black. Who has it worse?

And to answer@froggywentacourtingin regards to this situation, the black kid absolutely

I don't really know what people mean by "working class" but the quotes above are from a post about rural Scotland. Tbh I doubt that a black family in a village in rural Scotland would be anything other than middle class. They are likely to have moved relatively recently and likely will have bought a house rather than being provided with social housing.

@Novelusername I agree that there is sometimes this connotation alongside whiteness that you are “only” white which is a bit hurtful. But I’m not sure where this connotation really comes from. I think to an extent it has to be coming from white people themselves. That’s one of the reasons why I feel like understanding the construct of whiteness is helpful, because for me it helps get me past that hurtful aspect of being considered somehow lesser. Much like you aren’t diminishing racism, I guess alluding to racism also doesn’t need to diminish any of the other factors you mentioned there.

If you call it a right then it almost sounds like everyone has access to it, when in fact they don’t, even you just mean that everyone “should” have access to it.

I think it's implicit in the idea of human rights campaigns that not everyone has the rights that they should have.

I think the point of calling it a privilege as opposed to a right is basically that this underscores that it’s something which you have that someone else doesn’t
I don't think I'd have so much as a problem with the expression if it wasn't used as a weapon to shut people up, and if it didn't mean it made all these other important factors invisible. The terms 'male privilege' and 'white privilege' are used a lot, but not middle class/mental health/non violent home/non CSA etc privilege. I could equally argue that someone who didn't grow up in a violent home like I did has 'non violent home privilege' - a huge factor in how a person will be affected in their health, social and economic outcomes for the rest of their lives. But the reason I think all these other factors get ignored is the same reason invisible disabilities get ignored, because race and sex are easily identified and visible. Also, people who haven't experienced these other factors of deprivation are uncomfortable thinking about them. Lower class people are looked down upon by society and ignored, and they also have fewer voices making themselves heard, because of the stigma of things like CSA and because lower class people already have a lot on their plates just trying to survive. (I know these things don't only happen to the lower classes btw).

@Novelusername I think you make a really important point about the difference between factors people can see and those that are not visible. Both are equally important, but perhaps the systems of oppression around race and gender based on visibility/perception work differently to the systems around abuse or socioeconomic disadvantage. I think that might be why we are using different terminology.

I agree privilege is an uncomfortable word that sometimes doesn’t feel appropriate to attach to a really vulnerable person. Not sure what the solution is though, because the concept works more generally. Maybe that’s it - we are using privilege as a general concept here, not a descriptor of a particular individual.

Surely it comes down to perception & visibility. You can't "see" someone who's grown up in an abusive and violent home in the same way you can "see" a black boy in a hoody.