‘White’ Feminism

[Sociallydistancedcocktails]

I was recently on a thread which got me thinking about this.

Do you think ‘white’ feminism exists?

And your thoughts on the article below. I am quoting an excerpt

“White feminism is a term that has been on the tip of everyone's tongue since actor Emma Watson addressed past criticisms of her feminism in statement to her book club about the topic in early January. Though it's difficult to find an exact definition for "white feminism," it has come to describe a not-quite-feminist mindset that doesn't take into account the ways the women of color experience sexism, and how it differs from the way white women experience it. Simply put, white feminism is for white women who don't want to examine their white privilege. The term "intersectional feminism," which stands in opposition to white feminism, was coined by civil rights advocate and law professor Kimberlé Crenshaw in 1989 to help describe the experiences of Black women who not only face sexism, but systemic racism.

Understanding the ways race, gender, and other factors (such as disability, class, or sexuality) intersect is crucial to making our feminism more effective and impactful”

www.bustle.com/p/what-is-white-feminism-here-are-7-sneaky-ways-it-shows-up-into-your-life-7921450

And those of us who did not come from British privilege, whose ancestors were neither land nor slave owners, in whose lives the patterns of insecure social mobility continue, manifesting in poorer health, income, education and housing outcomes?

Continue to be excluded by the discourse while being dismissed as culpable for 'white feminism'.

If the goal was to alienate poor and WC white women from feminism, it couldn't be more effective.

I'm English and up until 3 days ago I thought we didn't have slave ownership here we were involved in transportation and owning slaves in Caribbean etc.

Yeah we did, of course we did. It was legal for nearly thirty years elsewhere in the British empire even after abolition in this country (and of course the state only abolished it elsewhere in the empire by buying off the British men with investments in slave plantations in the West Indies, etc). That was only about thirty years before abolition in America. It wasn't uncommon for plantation owners to bring slaves over here and treat them as slaves in this country - in fact often likening them to domestic pets.

Large chunks of wealthy men's fortunes in this country had direct ties to global slavery for a long time.

@BlackWaveComing

And those of us who did not come from British privilege, whose ancestors were neither land nor slave owners, in whose lives the patterns of insecure social mobility continue, manifesting in poorer health, income, education and housing outcomes?

Continue to be excluded by the discourse while being dismissed as culpable for 'white feminism'.

If the goal was to alienate poor and WC white women from feminism, it couldn't be more effective.

Quite.

@MorrisZapp

We're blaming women for slavery now.

What is the point of this?

Good question.

I grew up thinking the point of feminism was to do what one could for women and girls, particularly the most disadvantaged women and girls.

Apparently it's to self flagellate and read endless lazy journalism from.the US. And for white women to berate each other for our privilege. It's all a fucking performance, and I absolutely reject it.

Better to go and do one single thing in life for a woman or girl IRL than than to engage in elite behaviour codes.

Apparently it's to self flagellate and read endless lazy journalism from.the US. And for white women to berate each other for our privilege. It's all a fucking performance, and I absolutely reject it.

Yeah - it goes along with the contemporary rejection of the idea that we don't want any experts either. Women with lots of experience, reading or knowledge who want to contribute to a rational debate? Stay in your lane, old ladies, don't attempt to tell us anything because your ideas are old and outmoded. It's just the latest manifestation of the old old story of how women's ideas are simply feelings and disagreements, whereas it's men who can have rational debates.

Cake days my point is that I didn't invite it, DH didn't know it, the poster I was responding to didn't know it, I would imagine lots of people don't know it.

It's not about individuals.

It's also not about having a big fight or pitting people against each other. It is being leveraged in that way by people who are not friends of women whatever their colour, divide and rule.

To say all women are women and that's that, means not recognising or understanding that women have different backgrounds and issues. And that if you don't share them they will naturally not have them at the forefront of your mind, or probably even thought about or realised some of them.

The way the concept of intersectionality has been bastardised to oppression Olympics, different groups feeling sidelined/ guilted etc, and this bizarre over riding language and use of arguments based in another countries history in society is fucking me off tbh. It's a deliberate tactic from those who do not like women, chucking verbal hand grenades around and watching good women point the finger at each other.

It needs to be pointed out when it happens and ignored.

I admit I haven't read the piece in the OP. Maybe I should

It's true that listening can be uncomfortable.
But it's also really important to remember that most feminists are in this together and trying to spread understanding not divide, but sometimes get frustrated. It is not feminists who are throwing the phrase white feminist at women they disagree with on Twitter. It's often not a woman, even.

It's really important to me to not fall into the traps being set.

No- it's MEN who are stirring up social media saying women are responsible for this that and the other. Getting us running round in circles thinking and reading and considering and rejecting and coming up with nuanced arguments etc

It's the same old.

Because men have always blamed women for everything.

The fact that some women pick these ideas up is also standard.

If you know what you stand for and you know you're a good person and you know it's class analysis and not personal (which is why when it's said to one person it's a good sign something is not in good faith) and you know all this language is being used to get women to shut up.

Then just ignore it. Or point out it's bollocks and move on.

They are sitting there running their thighs gleefully over all this. The anti feminists of English speaking social media. The mysoginists. Such good fun.

Accuse a good woman of being unknowingly racist is light blue touch paper, step back and watch joyfully.

It is not feminists who are throwing the phrase white feminist at women they disagree with on Twitter. It's often not a woman, even.

It definitely is though - I hear it all the time from young women who specifically call themselves intersectional feminists; and it's used to say why they won't read any feminist writing unless it's "modern" (i.e. pro sex work, pro trans, and so on) - because older feminism is "white feminism" (even though, as we've been discussing, that's so completely not the case).

But isn't that what we say to men, cakedays?

That you can read this and empathise with that but in the end you can never know what it is like to live it day in day out.

Yes listen join in etc ok. Just remember that in the end, if women say you are wrong, then you are wrong. And if you are who you claim to be with the empathy then you will get that. And not start arguing the toss (um, as it were).

Sorry for massive long posts.

I agree with you completely that it's a divide and rule tactic to get women to shut up though.

It most definitely comes from women - mostly socio-economically privileged women. And it sticks in the fucking craw.

And yes, even dumb, poor white women understand the difference between someone spreading information, and someone perpetuating simplistic, divisive elite discourse aka 'white feminism' wherein all the white women share this vast privilege which they refuse to wield for other women because racism is their defining feature.

Which is b/s, at least in my experience.

Cake- it is when I've seen it. Honestly. And of course on Twitter you often don't know who anyone really is.

And I don't have any truck with fun/ libfem either.

Lots of women have always joined in with the crap that make no mistake comes from men.

So prostitution is a job like any other/ of course women and men can compete at sports, anything else is sexism/ transphobic and the women aren't trying hard enough if they lose / you (specific person are a white feminist aka evil racist) I mean it's all shit. I know it's drivel. You know it's drivel.

Remember girl power and the spice girls- it's the new acceptable face of feminism that men approve of. It's always been that way as well.

Why let people like that get up your nose?

The original ideas of intersectionality are good. The fact they have been appropriated by a bunch of dicks (!) is really sad. But let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.

Interesting discussion, though nothing to do with the original post. I know nothing about laws pertaining to slave ownership by women in the antebellum South, but it's been informative reading others' responses. I did a DNA test a few years ago and it said I have West African DNA. I would be intrigued to discover where it comes from, though I doubt I ever will as the small amount suggests it would be from around 5-6 generations back. Do I carry with me the sins of my white ancestors (presuming they were slave owners, which is not necessarily the case) or the trauma of my black forebears? Should I get reparations if I discover I have a slave ancestor? I don't mean to trivialise the issue at all, I just find the premise for reparations is presented as being based on ancestry when in actual fact it's based on current skin colour of descendants - it would surely be inappropriate as a white woman for me to claim anything. It raised other questions for me that I hadn't really considered before - at what point is someone no longer considered mixed race but white? Is this a question of skin colour, cultural identity, or of 'percentage'? Is it really up to anyone else to decide? Unlike the USA, the fastest growing ethnic group in the UK for many years has been 'mixed race'. I imagine in the near future as we become more and more mixed, such questions about race and cultural identity will be asked all the more.

I'm going to have to read this article in the OP aren't I... Deep breath...

Another rec for 'why I'm no longer talking (to white people) about race' if you haven't read it - I've only read the first few pages but v good already. Author is British.

Right will read article.

I'm not here for a fight I just find this coming up on MN a lot at the mo and it's frustrating.

I am also aware that MN is painted as white racist etc by people who hate women talking and (not this thread) people are posting goady stuff about white feminism and then prodding to see what they can get.

Apparently it's to self flagellate and read endless lazy journalism from.the US. And for white women to berate each other for our privilege. It's all a fucking performance, and I absolutely reject it.

Me too

I had no idea that reparations were being demanded from individuals based on perceived race?!

I know the British paid the slave owners and some of the bonds issued were we still live as it were till relatively recently.

I thought we didn't pay anything?

Has Belgium ever paid reparations/ apologised for the Congo? I mean fucking hell that was unspeakable. It was all unspeakable.

I should know more.

I am also aware that MN is painted as white racist etc by people who hate women talking

You answered yourself. It isn't necessarily anything to do with us, it's because they hate women talking. They aren't going to suddenly appreciate us because we are checking our privilege. They just want us to STFU. No.

The article is titled '7 Ways White Feminism Is Sneaking Into Your Life'. I mean that doesn't bode well.

‘But isn't that what we say to men, cakedays?

That you can read this and empathise with that but in the end you can never know what it is like to live it day in day out.

Yes listen join in etc ok. Just remember that in the end, if women say you are wrong, then you are wrong. And if you are who you claim to be with the empathy then you will get that. And not start arguing the toss (um, as it were).’

Well people who have bought into identity say all of that, but it isn’t a sensible way of trying to resolve issues.

Nobody has to believe that the correctness of an argument is assessed based on the standpoint of the speaker, or that we are unable to truly understand other people’s experiences.

Well people who have bought into identity say all of that, but it isn’t a sensible way of trying to resolve issues.

I've come to realise this.

'Simply put, white feminism is for white women who don't want to examine their white privilege. The term "intersectional feminism," which stands in opposition to white feminism, was coined by civil rights advocate and law professor Kimberlé Crenshaw in 1989 to help describe the experiences of Black women who not only face sexism, but systemic racism.'

Erm.

It's click bait fight fight type stuff I'm guessing...

The article is click bait guff that already seems outdated. I thought the main website producing these endless listicles about how much we need to 'check in' with and 'center' people with multiple oppressions had gone bust anyway.

It makes the slightest social interaction utterly exhausting, and removes humanity from our conversations. I'm white, I'm a feminist, and I'm your equal.

Having given a pretty random 'definition' of white feminism (what are the principle arguments, the reasoning, aims etc etc) and just sort of saying it's crappy women who are the opposite of this good thing...

It goes on to say,

'. If you're not actively speaking out against white feminism and dismantling it, then you're still benefitting from systemic racism.'

With that definition how can I know what it is? Is it every feminist aim a white woman supports? How do I know if they are right or wrong? Is it ideas that help just white women explicitly (like what?) or by majority? Is it 'white feminism' to be concerned against attacks on abortion rights in countries which are say 98.6% white (Poland).

And if you accept that systemic racism exists then what the hell is the last bit about? No amount of talking will stop you benefiting. You will just be more aware of it.

So that's all pretty much rubbish tbh.

Does anyone else suspect the OP is the author of the article, or is it just me? I can't understand why she started the thread, then went on to talk about white American businesswomen being promoted, then claiming women owned slaves in the antebellum South and that everything has always been white women's fault but white men are always very supportive. All sounds very much like something she's been reading about in a class, rather than speaking from experience. It's all a bit disparate, and all very American and male-centric. Either the author, or a LibFem student whose activism involves calling people 'white feminists' on social media but very little else, or an MRA. I don't mean to cast aspersions, but it's been difficult to see what the point of this was apart from to blame white women for all the world's ills, but white men supported her at work so they're totally off the hook. Seemed to change the topic each time she was asked to give any further details.