Throwing women's sport under the bus

[andyoldlabour]

Former US soccer player sees no problem in allowing male bodied people competing in women's sport. Lori Lindsey says that it would help their mental health, and that anyone who opposes this is a white supremacist.

dailycaller.com/2021/04/24/former-us-soccer-player-lori-lindsey-banning-transgender-athletes-upholds-white-supremacy/?

Women's rugby is already so vast in terms of size, weight, strength, experience etc that no argument of that makes any sense.

So, you don't understand the science or agree with the science behind the World Rugby decision at all then? And you obviously don't agree or understand the science about the power disparity male and female bodies (even with testosterone reduced)?

I feel I spend a lot of time posting this....

[quote willithappen]@NecessaryScene1 by height and weight testing people? Because that's crazy. Women's rugby is already so vast in terms of size, weight, strength, experience etc that no argument of that makes any sense.

But I disagree - the people taking part should be the ones to say what they are comfortable with doing. Can't be that worried about the safety of women playing when it's already completely off the scale at grassroots level lol [/quote]
Let's have a think about how women's rugby team and a men's rugby team might compare. Are you seriously saying women could thrive in a game that allowed increasing numbers of trans women to play?Aside from the obvious dangers to health and life they wouldn't even be picked.

I'd assumed willithappen was male. I'm a female footballer and in my long and entirely undistinguished playing career I've played single sex, mixed sex and against a transwoman and I couldn't feel more strongly that transwomen have no place in women's sports.

I just assumed the 'but, Michael Phelps' argument was coming since we have 'but all teams have all body shapes and sizes' without addressing the significant differences between weakest males vs strongest females, and the significance of different muscle types, leverage, lung and heart capacity, less likely impact on a male's brain with head injuries etc.

I look forward to seeing the science that willithappen will present that will convince me that the making these changes will make it safer for my now teen player coming through the ranks.

Love to see it willit?

You are pretty much pulling the ladder up after you regards safety for the teen players of today.

I’m a women, but if I was to transgender to a man I would not play on the men’s team, that’s just dangerous, it’s not about size and weight- men are built different, and rugby players are built like stone towers!!

1. Yes I am female.
2. Height and weight because that's what RFU have proposed for allowing trans women to play. So totally relevant actually.
3. The differences - I am 9 stone, I can play and tackle and women almost double my weight on the other team. I am grassroots - I can walk into the pitch doing absolutely zero training and end up playing against an international player (which has happened - granted I personally hadn't walked on with zero training but we had players on the team where it was their first game).
4. We have 'unofficially' played with mixed men and women - like I say we don't care 😂 it's funny to me that most people who are so up in arms actually have zero involvement. (Not saying that everyone does before people jump down my throat). A lot of the girls on my team can tackle the guys harder than any other guy could :)
5. Personal experience - played with and against a couple of trans women and no issues.

Keep throwing demands for me to prove with 'science' all you like but I think I will stick to my own experience.
Also a bit crazy I can't come in and give my personal experience/opinion without everyone telling me I'm wrong 😂

A lot of the girls on my team can tackle the guys harder than any other guy could

Why isn't rugby a mixed sport then? If sex makes no difference.

willithappen

Nobody needs you to prove it. The scientific case has been made. It’s fine for you not to mind but it’s not just up to you.

World rugby held a 3 day symposium on this and invited experts from both sides and at the end of it concluded that it was dangerous for men to play with and against women

Personal anecdotes v 3 day expert conference with evidence.

I’ll go with the evidence.

willithappen: People keep asking you why rugby isn't a mixed-sex sport. Surely if it's perfectly safe, and men aren't better rugby players than women, it should be mixed sex. Why isn't it?

Height and weight because that's what RFU have proposed for allowing trans women to play.

I don't think you'll find many people here who support the RFU proposal, which seem to have been made up with nothing to actually back them apart from a vague "be inclusive" desire.

We're all about the World Rugby guidelines, which are based on actual evidence and research.

AFAIK, no national body has actually put up an argument pointing out any problems with the reasoning and evidence for the World Rugby guidelines, to justify not following them - they're just pretending they don't exist.

Like you.

Bizarrely, O J Simpson posted a video on Twitter earlier in which he criticized males who play against females in sport.

Great, but also not great as he's no friend to feminists obviously.

I assume when you played mixed sex you all agreed to play mixed sex? A female playing on a women’s team is not going to be told their is a male on their team or opposing team.

So not all that relevant as far as consent goes.

@TheSuezCanalTugBoat

Bizarrely, O J Simpson posted a video on Twitter earlier in which he criticized males who play against females in sport.

Great, but also not great as he's no friend to feminists obviously.

So what?

A lot of the girls on my team can tackle the guys harder than any other guy could

You were making reasonable arguments up till this point, but we all know that this statement is not true.

A lot of the girls on my team can tackle the guys harder than any other guy could

And flipping it?

How hard can the men tackle the women (I assume you’re an adult, and it’s other adults you’re playing)?

My husband is a man, and was a Rugby player. He's smaller than average for British men (12st, 5ft8... So comparable to a lot of women. But completely different body structure). He was once seriously injured in a game with a player from a Pacific nation (amateur Rugby, not international!). It was the size difference that did it. The other player was a lot bigger than him.
And that's between men.

It is so easy to attribute the intentions of people who disagree as being ‘right wing’ or ‘white supremacists’ or any number of political views that are considered hateful

in Britain the equivalent response is " You're a Tory" .

The differences - I am 9 stone, I can play and tackle and women almost double my weight on the other team

Not sure what point you are trying to prove here. You do know, as per the ‘science’ you seem to not consider credible, that a male will most likely do much better than that. Consistently. And the power differential when a male who has greater speed tackling you with greater power, means greater chance that the one tackle that does lay you flat may do just that little more harm that causes permanent damage.

It is absolutely fine for you to agree to play with that risk. It is not ok for you to handwave away the risk on behalf of my daughter and her mates. Or any other woman.

I would be interested though why you discount the science that was presented at World Rugby though. In the face of the findings from the Swansea university into female brain damage due to rugby and the many players who are claiming early dementia even amongst the male teams.

Thankfully it's being banned slowly but surely.

I will bet that when you played against the men, they held back.

You might think they didn’t but I’ll bet they didn’t go as hard in on you as if it had been all male.

I’m not saying they will have been kittens but they will have had restraint.

They won’t have gone in as hard on the women.

Decent men just wouldn’t.

(And I have played mixed sports - though not rugby)

Also a bit crazy I can't come in and give my personal experience/opinion without everyone telling me I'm wrong

You’re not wrong about your own experience. You’re wrong in thinking you’re own experience should be enough to form a policy that encompasses the opinions of all the other women and girls who think differently.

You have had no issues. Great! That’s great for you, although if you were to play full contact rugby against males for long enough it would only be a matter of time before something went wrong.

But this is about making it fair and safe for everyone. You saying “I’ve never had an issue” is the same as “my granny smoked 40 ciggies a day and lived to 102”.

Transwomen won’t play in men’s teams because they would get thrashed and they wouldn’t like that - they would consider it unfair that the men have a testosterone advantage over them - so they would rather play with women so they can thrash them instead. Sounds much fairer don’t you think 🙄😩
This world is turning delusional- honestly it’s not a bad thing I’m getting on in years and won’t be here too much longer. I couldn’t stand being a young girl or woman competing in sport now and facing this threat every time I turned up for a comp. women ought to protest and refuse to participate when transwomen are allowed to enter.

If you’re still on the thread, @willithappen, I’d like to hear a bit more.

I’m a former player, and still have a lot of my former team mates on my Facebook, though I’m not still actively in contact with some of them as our lives have gone in different directions. One of my former playing friends feels as you do, and I am at a loss as to why, and maybe you can help me understand where she’s coming from (I can’t ask her directly, as I have a feeling this relates to a trans family member, and we’re not close enough for me to feel comfortable kicking the hornets nest and upsetting her as she is quite fragile).

When you’re thinking about a transwoman player, what are you visualising? Someone quite feminine? Slightly built?

What is it that you think is positive for women’s rugby that transwomen can bring as a whole, not just for themselves? I’ve heard people refer to increasing inclusion and diversity, but in my experience, women’s rugby teams are already and have for many years been very inclusive of diverse sexualities, backgrounds etc. In fact, it’s always struck me that the men’s game has a lot to learn about this, with its problems with homophobia and endorsing domestic abusers. Don’t you think this is where the work needs to happen?

Would you consider that any of your fellow players objecting would be doing so on legitimate grounds that you would respect, or do you think it can only be out of bigotry?

Why do single sex sports exist, and what is it about someone’s gender identity that makes this not matter, in your view?

Am really interested in this. Thanks, if you feel like answering.