Maya Forstater's appeal skeleton

[Mollyollydolly]

Saw this on twitter and thought it deserved a thread to itself.

As Jason Braler (employment lawyer) says on twitter "It's more a thesis than a traditional skeleton, but it certainly drives home the points from every conceivable angle.
It may also be the only ever EAT skeleton to have 4 references to Orwell"

hiyamaya.files.wordpress.com/2021/04/forstater-eat-claimant-skeleton-argument-plus-low-res-pages-1-50.pdf

I'm pretty sure that wouldn't even need a change in the law to sort out. Self ID isn't the law.

I thought referring to being trans as a medical state requiring treatment was transphobic? Getting away from medicalising it was one of the main arguments for self-id.

@oldwomanwhoruns

Absolutely *@crossparsley*, what about the dignity of WOMEN?? Don't we have dignity?

Quite. For all this talk of 'balancing rights' they don't seem to give a flying fuck about the impact this has on women.

Recognising sex accurately (including using she/her third person singular pronouns) is not 'misgendering'. The conflation of sex and gender continues to obscure. English pronouns are sex based

However you see it, if this case succeeds I doubt it will protect people who refuse to use the pronouns of choice of a work colleague in a work situation. I suspect this will be the compromise. I doubt "misgendering" or "correctly sexing" in the workplace will not suddenly become acceptable because your belief is protected.

@Shizuku, @TinselAngel is the expert here, but the requirement that the spouse is consulted about the granting of a GRC has nothing whatever to do with seeking her/his approval for medical treatment, as I understand it. It's to ensure the spouse is able to get an annulment on the grounds that the entire basis of the marriage contract has changed. Spousal veto is an extremely misleading term.

@R0wantrees

You only need one in circumstances where you are expected to produce your birth certificate and for some tax purposes, so for many trans people it doesn't make much difference because they are not in situations where they need their birth certificate.

The passport is the primary UK identification document. It is based on the birth certificate and so acts as a proxy confirmation. UK passports should not have the sex marker changed unless the birth certificate has been changed.

Nope

Its an identity document. So if an individual identifies as male or female nothing wrong in that being reflected on the Passport - and that is the practice at the moment.

Cannot believe, in a court of law, that believing in biological sex is compared to Holocaust denial. Actually speechless. I hope someone like Baddiel picks up on it .. incredibly offensive thing to say.

I doubt "misgendering" or "correctly sexing" in the workplace will not suddenly become acceptable because your belief is protected.

Most of what JR is saying regarding rights and protection equally applies to Maya and everyone on here fighting for the rights of women to be enforced and upheld.

The paragraph JR read out is preceded by a paragraph that says case law says sex is immutable. Ooof.

Anyone should be allowed a divorce for any reason, or none in my opinion. But no-one should be allowed to veto their spouse's medical treatment
It's a good job that isn't even remotely the law then.

Quite. For all this talk of 'balancing rights' they don't seem to give a flying fuck about the impact this has on women.

Women, deliberately, weren't remotely considered in respect of the GRA.

I've been following along on Twitter, as has my DH. Both of our jaws have been on the floor at the arguments advanced by JR on the CGD's behalf.

What's worrying is how many people seem to believe all this stuff. How do we retrieve our young people from this insane ideology based on memes and gifs and anime avatars?

Its an identity document. So if an individual identifies as male or female nothing wrong in that being reflected on the Passport - and that is the practice at the moment.

But is the field marked "Sex" or "Gender"?

Mine says "sex".

Believing in biological sex is comparable to holocaust denial

Un fucking believable that a lawyer would stand up in court and say that

Why can't there be a sex and gender field on a passport? It really shouldn't be THAT much of a problem.

@NecessaryScene1

We have an interruption:

KMQC: I hesitate to intervene, especially as an intervener.

Both sides have cited me. I'm here for the EHRC, and it's their views I represent. Mine don't matter.

The paragraph JR read out is preceded by a paragraph that says case law says sex is immutable.

Oopsy!

Mine says sex/sexe

Why can't there be a sex and gender field on a passport? It really shouldn't be THAT much of a problem.

I can see an argument for putting "gender" on a passport, rather than sex. It is an identity document. And then people could be more specific like saying "non-binary" or "punk", and if the person presenting it didn't have blue or green hair as appropriate, then they could check more closely.

And we could all set ours to "none".

The passport is the primary UK identification document. It is based on the birth certificate and so acts as a proxy confirmation. UK passports should not have the sex marker changed unless the birth certificate has been changed.

R0 - I presume your 'should' here is - 'in my opinion it would be good if' rather than 'it is Passport Office policy that they should'. Because as we know from the census case, the sex on a passport can be changed without a GRC.

Changing your birth certificate is a medical procedure now?

Crikey

The passport thing is what is known as "ahead of the law". A passport is a document which should be accurate.

There are some men who believe (erroneously) that they have the 'legal' right to participate in women's sport, use female single sex changing rooms, be referred to as she/her etc

Yes, and there are some trans women who believe (correctly) that they have the 'legal' right to participate in women's sport, use female single sex changing rooms, be referred to as she/her etc

@IloveJKRowling

Why can't there be a sex and gender field on a passport? It really shouldn't be THAT much of a problem.

It seems very sensible to do that.

@littlbrowndog

Believing in biological sex is comparable to holocaust denial

Un fucking believable that a lawyer would stand up in court and say that

On the plus side, it surely looks utterly batshit to the majority of people.

there are some trans women who believe (correctly) that they have the 'legal' right to participate in women's sport, use female single sex changing rooms, be referred to as she/her etc

How is one to differentiate men from men with the correct piece of paper?

Tricky