Pronouns and sexual orientation

[InsideNumberNine]

I know there is a lot of discussion at the moment regards pronouns and it got me thinking.

If the purpose of declaring pronouns is to show solidarity to people who may be struggling with their gender identity and therefore, declaring yours helps them to feel accepted before they publicly share theirs, should we be doing this for our sexual orientations too? Should people who are openly gay or lesbian be declaring that in their email signatures to show solidarity to colleagues who are afraid to make their sexual orientation public?

I was reading something about coercive control and how much some partners object to their loved ones interacting with others.

What on earth would happen if work/social convention mandated an expression of sexual orientation. Just who would be appointed to check its appropriateness? How would people manage their jealous or controlling partners (I acknowledge that these people have a wider problem).

I confess that I rarely scroll all the way down to someone's signature as I mostly know the colleagues or professional circle who contact me in various capacities.

I don't know what it would be like to read someone's pronouns + sexual orientation - would there be any expectation that this should be followed by other declarations of protected characteristics pour encourager les autres?

Perhaps everyone should also declare their race, age and religion? Many people are uncomfortable around openly stating such issues, so others should surely get the ball rolling by declaring theirs?

You're mixing up two unconnected aspects.

Firstly, declaring 'your' pronouns is nothing to do with helping people feel comfortable being open about their gender identity. Being comfortable publicly displaying their gender identity would be a male performing feminine stereotypes using the men's loos and none of the other male users considering it in any way worthy of comment or reaction.

Secondly, declaring the pronouns that one person expects others to use in reference to the is straightforward compelled speech and forced compliance in somebody else's belief. Why should you be expected to show solidarity with them, and not with any other position? Would you demand that a Muslim show solidarity with a Catholic by participation in the Catholic's declarations of faith - particularly when the Catholic was not present? Would you expect that of an atheist? Would you expect a Catholic to deny , in solidarity with an atheist?

If a person from a marginalised or minority group wishes to reveal this in support of others like them, that's their choice. Requiring everyone to conform to the same pattern of revelations is not supportive of anyone, merely coercive.

Well there's rainbow lanyards and laces etc to show allyship with people who aren't straight.

They've been around for yonks.

I you suggesting that as well as putting he/him we should add gay? Or She/her/straight? Or They/them/bi

Why is it anybodies business who I want to sleep with FFS? And what has this got to do with feminism?

People who are struggling with their gender identity should be respected if they do not want their work colleagues to know. Hence why declaring pronouns should be optional, and respected if declared.

It's a brilliant idea, OP. There are other really really important things we should be sharing in our bio too, aren't there?

Cat or Dog preference would be really useful.
Also perhaps if one is a Morning person, or an Evening sort of person? So that they know when it's best to phone?

I sat through a serious meeting a few weeks ago where every speaker was asked to give a 'visual description' of themselves as part of their into. It was horrendously awkward to sit through ten versions of "I'm John bloggs and I'm a middle aged white man who is a bit bald sitting in front of a bookcase"

But that is the logical next step

@parietal

I sat through a serious meeting a few weeks ago where every speaker was asked to give a 'visual description' of themselves as part of their into. It was horrendously awkward to sit through ten versions of "I'm John bloggs and I'm a middle aged white man who is a bit bald sitting in front of a bookcase"

But that is the logical next step

No. Just no. I couldn't - and I should think a substantial number of people would loathe it.

@oldwomanwhoruns

It's a brilliant idea, OP. There are other really really important things we should be sharing in our bio too, aren't there?

Cat or Dog preference would be really useful.
Also perhaps if one is a Morning person, or an Evening sort of person? So that they know when it's best to phone?

I'm morning dog coffee.

@parietal

I sat through a serious meeting a few weeks ago where every speaker was asked to give a 'visual description' of themselves as part of their into. It was horrendously awkward to sit through ten versions of "I'm John bloggs and I'm a middle aged white man who is a bit bald sitting in front of a bookcase"

But that is the logical next step

This, though, is for vision impaired people, I think. Quite different to pronouns.

Years ago (late 2010s before “pronouns” were a big thing), I worked for a big multinational company which decided to “maximise distributed teams” and began assigning staff for development projects from all across the company, worldwide. Due to time differences, work communication shifted to email and intranet and people ended up on projects with colleagues they’d never even spoken to on the phone/videoconference.

Employees started putting Ms, Mrs, Mr and Miss in their email signatures when it wasn’t obvious - e.g., "Morgan E. Smith (Miss)". (This was mainly out of politeness - e.g., if Morgan’s PM had to tell her own boss that Morgan is out on emergency leave, she’s due back on x date, and her deliverables have been reassigned, it’s helpful to know Morgan’s a she.)

Management objected to this. They didn’t want a lot of emails sitting around (the company had a data retention policy) with sex clearly indicated, in case it ever figured into a discrimination suit. They eventually rolled out a required email signature template - name (first, middle optional, last), title, department, office address, telephone.

It strikes me as strange now that companies are not just OK with indicating sex (and whatever else) in email signatures, but encouraging and even requiring it. Aren’t there issues with requesting/holding demographic information beyond what’s legitimately needed for business purposes?

You've misunderstood the purpose of pronouns in email signatures. It's not to show solidarity, it's (supposedly) to make the inclusion of pronouns standard practice so that people who don't identify as the presumed he/she can announce their pronouns in their signature and feel less self conscious about it, because everyone else does it too.

That's the theory anyway. Although I'm doubtful of how much notice people take of email signatures, given how often people can't even get my name right when they reply to my emails, despite it being clearly visible in the first line of my signature. So I would be highly surprised if they were able to squirrel away information on pronouns for use at a later date.

I sat through a serious meeting a few weeks ago where every speaker was asked to give a 'visual description' of themselves as part of their into. It was horrendously awkward to sit through ten versions of "I'm John bloggs and I'm a middle aged white man who is a bit bald sitting in front of a bookcase"

that's horrifying!

Very well put, JellySlice.

Pronouns are too try hard. I would prefer to use my star sign, which helpfully is gender neutral.

TeaAndStrumpets (Scorpio)

Please respect my star sign.

I suppose it depends what sector you're working in doesn't it? I work in B2B distribution, I care more about the person on the other end actually responding to my email than I do about their sex or identity.

@oldwomanwhoruns

It's a brilliant idea, OP. There are other really really important things we should be sharing in our bio too, aren't there?

Cat or Dog preference would be really useful.
Also perhaps if one is a Morning person, or an Evening sort of person? So that they know when it's best to phone?

I'm a later on but not too late, cat/dog/horse coffee drinking bitch.

Is that what you envisioned?
Looks better than
Pronouns majesty/regent. ace bi
(Or is it bi ace? )

Including your Myer Biggs personality type would possibly be more useful and more interesting.

Inside leg measurement would support everybody.

@BlackWaveComing - I guessed it might be for visually impaired people, but in the context of this meeting, there wasn't any particular need to know what anyone looked like. and it was very embarrassing for everyone.

Pronouns are too try hard. I would prefer to use my star sign, which helpfully is gender neutral.

I’ve thought of using my star sign when asked for my ‘gender’ (when they mean sex), TeaAndStrumpets. Or my favourite colour/ song/ holiday destination. All equally relevant/irrelevant and more interesting than ‘gender identity’!

@parietal

I sat through a serious meeting a few weeks ago where every speaker was asked to give a 'visual description' of themselves as part of their into. It was horrendously awkward to sit through ten versions of "I'm John bloggs and I'm a middle aged white man who is a bit bald sitting in front of a bookcase"

But that is the logical next step

It's a different thing entirely - it's for visually impaired people who may be attending the meeting, and it's helpful for them. And you can't just look around a room or look around a Zoom and say, oh, it doesn't look like there's anyone visually impaired here, let's just skip this bit - unless you know for sure everyone present has 20/20 vision, then it's helpful to include it. Some theatres now do something similar with a 'touch tour' of the set before the show. It's not in the same category as a compulsory pronoun declaration.

@oldwomanwhoruns

It's a brilliant idea, OP. There are other really really important things we should be sharing in our bio too, aren't there?

Cat or Dog preference would be really useful.
Also perhaps if one is a Morning person, or an Evening sort of person? So that they know when it's best to phone?

Food preferences maybe: "I`m an intermittent vegan and sometimes vegetarian but I like eating a bit of fish now and then". Starting meetings at work could take forever with this stuff.

[quote parietal]@BlackWaveComing - I guessed it might be for visually impaired people, but in the context of this meeting, there wasn't any particular need to know what anyone looked like. and it was very embarrassing for everyone.[/quote]
I can't imagine why anyone at a 'serious meeting' would have any need to know what anyone else looked like, any more than they'd need to know their sexuality, 'gender' or religion. Focus on looks is all too likely to be liable to end up being detrimental to women.
We only ever do audio only. Screens are needed for important info.