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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

National Youth/Children's Brass Band (yes, I am in the right section)

59 replies

GCSciFiFan · 20/04/2021 19:09

OMG The crazy gets everywhere!!

Just completed DD's registration for NCBB - they didn't even ask for sex just gender identity with answers:

woman (including transwoman)
man (including transman)
non binary.

Aaargghhh! Have sent the following in reply - wish me luck!

-------
Dear XXXX

Registration completed – thank you.

However I do have to raise my extreme concern at one of the questions on the registration form. The question asks for Gender Identity , with answers of woman (including transwoman), man (including transman) and non binary.

  1. Gender Identity is not a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010. The protected characteristics are sex, and gender reassignment. The Equality Act places obligations on organisations in terms of not discriminating. If the information collected is wrong, misleading or refers to characteristics that are not on the list of protected characteristics then the organisation risks being found in breach of the act.
  2. Following on from this, under GDPR organisations are only allowed to collect necessary information – which would be at most those covered by protected characteristics. There is no lawful reason to collect information about other characteristics including “gender identity”. Thus you should only be collecting Sex (male/female).
  3. It is not possible for a legally defined transwoman or transman (with a Gender Recognition Certificate) to be a member of the NCBB, as GRCs are not available to under-18s. I would suspect it is almost impossible for NYBB due to the time needed post-18 to gain a GRC. We do not have Self-ID (where everyone is whatever gender they claim to be) in the UK, thus the only relevant characteristic is that of sex. As your organisation seems to believe that women and trans-women belong in the same category, please can you confirm that there will be adequate provision of single-sex only toilet and bathroom facilities for the course? Can you confirm that changing and shower facilities, and sleeping accommodation will be single sex? The Equality Act 2010 specifically says that single-sex exemptions can be used to designate spaces which are only for one sex, and apply to scenarios such as changing rooms (Schedule 3 part 7 sections 26-27) and sleeping arrangements (Schedule 23 part 3). The Act makes it clear that the above exemptions apply even with regard to people undergoing gender reassignment, as long as the exemptions are ‘a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim’ (Schedule 3 part 7 section 28). The legitimate aim in this case is the safeguarding of children: You may be aware of the recent articles in the national press on the increase in child on child sexual abuse and the alarming extent of the sexual harassment of girls in school. All children must feel safe in an educational environment, and in this context it is particularly important that girls are able to change and sleep in a single sex space.

For more information this issue, including how to create safe environments for all children I recommend the following websites:

safeschoolsallianceuk.net/who-we-are/
www.sexnotgender.info/
www.transgendertrend.com/product/equality-law-and-statutory-schools-guidance/

I look forward to your response.
-----------

OP posts:
LizzieSiddal · 20/04/2021 19:13

What a fantastic email!

Thank you for posting. I hope you get the required response- which should be an apology and reassurance that they provide single sex provision for children.

Leafstamp · 20/04/2021 19:14

Well done OP. You're right, it does get everywhere. Another similar example I saw on these boards was a CQC post-hospital discharge questionnaire, for a child (I think in this case a toddler) asking inappropriate questions about whether their gender matched their sex assigned at birth.

We must challenge this nonsense every single time we see it.

Procrastinator3 · 20/04/2021 19:15

Great letter

HumphreyCobblers · 20/04/2021 19:17

National Youth Orchestra application asked for preferred pronouns.

AMCoffeePMWine · 20/04/2021 19:23

I love a strongly worded memo. Great job OP. We must challenge this every time we come across it.

Chilver · 20/04/2021 19:36

Fantastic email OP. May I use it in part for a response to a similar registration I've seen?

OhHolyJesus · 20/04/2021 19:36

We must challenge this every time we come across it.

I second that.

Every. Single. Time.

Well done OP. 🤞🏻for a decent reply.

Come back and tell us how you get on.

persistentwoman · 20/04/2021 19:39

Fantastic focus on safeguarding children OP (and that annoying thing , the law).
Can't wait to see the reply to this.

GCSciFiFan · 20/04/2021 20:03

And a reply...

“ Thank you for your query regarding the question on the registration form. The wording of the particular question mirrors the wording of the information that we are required to report to the Arts Council on our annual return. I will forward your response to the rest of our management team for clarification which may include us having to communicate with the Arts Council.

I can assure you that the accommodation provided on the residential course has single sex bathroom facilities, in fact the boys and girls will be housed in separate buildings overnight.”

Time to move up the chain then!!

OP posts:
GCSciFiFan · 20/04/2021 20:04

And please anyone feel free to use any of this if you need!

OP posts:
FlyPassed · 20/04/2021 20:06

Excellent email OP.

I wonder how on earth they implement single sex accommodation is they don't record sex... Hmm

WorkingItOutAsIGo · 20/04/2021 20:07

OP great email!

Skyliner001 · 20/04/2021 20:07
Biscuit
persistentwoman · 20/04/2021 20:07

The Arts Council are a 'Stonewall Diversity Champion' so that's where they get their language and orders from. I'm surprised they dare say that boys and girls will be housed in separate buildings as that's definitely off message as far as Stonewall is concerned.

Standrewsschool · 20/04/2021 20:08

Excellent email.

GCSciFiFan · 20/04/2021 20:09

I will be following up on this tomorrow don’t worry...will keep you all posted!

OP posts:
KFleming · 20/04/2021 20:11

I can assure you that the accommodation provided on the residential course has single sex bathroom facilities, in fact the boys and girls will be housed in separate buildings overnight.

How can they assure you of that, based on the info they collected? Will they be picking children out who have ticked “woman (including transwoman)” and saying “sorry, could we just confirm your sex with you, we think we might need to put you in the boys’ accommodation”. Or will they be asking for sex info later on?

Callmejudith · 20/04/2021 20:11

Well done OP, great letter

Biscuitsanddoombar · 20/04/2021 20:12

Organisational capture in action! Get the fundsrs to demand the info is recorders as a condition of grant and those who need the money won’t push back because welll! They need the money....

rogdmum · 20/04/2021 20:13

That’s a great email! (Yours, that is, not the response, though confirmation of single sex spaces is good)

TheShadowyFeminist · 20/04/2021 20:17

There was an FOI I came across ages ago, from the EHRC, which included paperwork on their hunt for cases to litigate to advance trans rights. One case they had referred involved (I think) an overnight trip & (I think) a girl identifying as a boy wanting to be accommodated with other boys. The school IIRC did an impact assessment & risk assessment & they (I think) concluded that they could not agree to the request due to safeguarding reasons. The EHRC then declined to get further involved.

If I can find it I'll post a link as I think it's a good example to work in more arguments to make. Hopefully I can clear up the bits I'm fuzzy on.

AnyOldPrion · 20/04/2021 20:19

I’d be checking what they mean by single-sex, given they didn’t collect that information.

What do they mean by “girls” given they state that women includes men who claim they are women?

GCSciFiFan · 20/04/2021 20:26

I am absolutely sure his definition of girl/boy matches mine - I’m not going to push it further at the moment with him - if it’s coming from the arts council he’s stuck! I’ll see what comes back from the rest of the management team.,,

OP posts:
UppityPuppity · 20/04/2021 20:28

What is the point of them framing the question that way?

Are you a woman or a man?
Are you a man or a woman?

TheShadowyFeminist · 20/04/2021 20:31

page 3 details the case involved

Reasons the school gave to not allow a female child who identified as a boy to sleep alongside the boys was:

"The School identified the legitimate aims of safeguarding both him and his fellow students, The safeguarding concerns revolved around privacy, welfare and the risk of sexual interaction."