Skirt length responses

[Newq]

Dd12 knows a girl age 11 whose skirts have to fall below the knee. She found this odd.

I tried to explain and probably did a crap job.

I know this sort of thing is going to come up again one day and don't want to mess up a second time so please help me what do I say in something of an age appropriate way that isn't going to immediately make her horribly self conscious?

No concern about trouser length above the ankle.

That would have to be pretty high to expose anything!
Plenty of schools requre that boys wear shorts. It seems pretty old fashioned.

Contrary to our reputation on Twitter most mumsnet feminists are quite happy for people to practice religion as they see fit.

Quite a lot of us are left wing hippies (at heart) too.

It's not because of religion, nor school rules, nor is it the girls choice. She's just going along with her mum's rules, for now. A mum who had her very young. So I'm making assumptions and linking this to her perhaps not wanting history to repeat itself.
Re the headscarf I wasn't going to assume the question was about religion. That I personally deal with by a this is what some people believe and thankfully we live somewhere we have freedom of belief angle. Maybe I should do the same here, but what is the belief?

Is it precisely what @wonderstuff says ie 'Reality is we are still obsessed about girls dress and how appropriate or modest it is, largely because of male reactions to it.'

And therein lies the problem. I wake her up to the reality of the male gaze, which she is happily oblivious to right now.

Is she oblivious at 12? I wasn't having conversations with my mum about it but by 12 I was getting men in white vans honk me on the way to school, all the girls at school were rolling up our skirts and then being told to lengthen them again by the teachers. It would be lovely to think that girls aren't concerned with male gaze from such a young age, but I'm not sure that's where we are.

Personally I'd be honest, some people think that girls and young women should dress in a certain way because they worry about what others think about them.

11 isn’t too young to have the male gaze discussion with daughters- or sons. The founder of Our Streets Now was prompted to act because of street harassment of her 11 year old sister.

Your daughter is not too young to understand religious dress. Please talk to her about the hijab and dispel 'nit' association at once, as she could get in trouble repeating that rubbish, in addition to it just not being a very nice thing to say about Muslim peers.

This video is appropriate for her age.
www.bbc.co.uk/teach/class-clips-video/religious-education-ks2-my-life-my-religion-hijab/zhdfcqt

You need to be honest with her. She is going to come up against problems with male attention and needs the language to be able to talk about it. If she hasn't already.

If you keep talking round it and preserving her innocence, she will just learn that it is a subject you obfuscate and will struggle on her own and just cut you out of the conversation.

@PurpleWh1teGreen

Contrary to our reputation on Twitter most mumsnet feminists are quite happy for people to practice religion as they see fit.

Quite a lot of us are left wing hippies (at heart) too.

Yes well, one of the bizarre aspects of feminism is the acceptance of dress codes certain religions arbitrarily apply to women.

If you keep talking round it and preserving her innocence

I'm not sure 'innocence' does the innocent any favours. 'Keep them ignorant, keep them weak/defenceless' is what it often boils down to.

Which is not intended as a criticism of the OP and may be a derail anyway.

[quote GoingThruTheMotions]Your daughter is not too young to understand religious dress. Please talk to her about the hijab and dispel 'nit' association at once, as she could get in trouble repeating that rubbish, in addition to it just not being a very nice thing to say about Muslim peers.

This video is appropriate for her age.
www.bbc.co.uk/teach/class-clips-video/religious-education-ks2-my-life-my-religion-hijab/zhdfcqt[/quote]
The nit association is a new one on me and I agree it should be dispelled.

I don't know how anyone who calls themselves a feminist can support the wearing of hijab etc.

Surely it's less acceptance than realising religious women are not in a position of enough power to change things?

@wonderstuff thank you you've summed it up for me again.
@GoingThruTheMotions thank you but this has nothing to do with religious dress. That's a different topic. Muslims of course aren't the only group to more commonly cover their heads with cloth. And everyone gets nits! They turned up in our home recently. Maybe if we'd covered our heads...

That is the weirdest explanation I’ve ever seen. Very few non religious women wear headscarves. Your daughter will come home some day mad at you after having had a humiliating conversation with friends where she realised Muslim women are not all terrified of nits.

I don't 'support' the hijab. However, current national curriculum guidelines are that it should be tolerated. I support all women, that includes those whose cultural practices require certain things from them. I can fight simultaneously for female only sex spaces for those that require them because of religion, whilst understanding many parts of religion are cultural and not in religious texts. I'm an atheist myself for numerous reasons.

We'll actually you've spread misinformation there and as a pp has said you don't want your daughter coming home angry at you for making her look foolish.

Wow. Really we have our dim days but neither of us are quite as stupid as you are making out. She understands perfectly well about religious dress, but as I've already said I find that to be a separate topic. I'm out. Few things to mull over and a summed up response for future chats. Thank you everyone!

I appreciate we shouldn't be obsessed with what girls wear BUT as a teacher if you're daughter is sitting in the front row in a short skirt I can see her knickers. Obviously I'm not looking trying to see them.

I don't think it's 'picking on girls' in this instance to not want really short skirts. The idea that no one's pants should be on show is pretty reasonable. Boys are wearing trousers that have to conform to rules, girls can also wear trousers with the same rules and if they choose to wear a skirt there's rules for that.

We actually just have boys and girls wearing trousers at our school

Girls at the local high schools wear really short tight skirts that they constantly pull down as they walk as they are so short that they naturally rise up. It is not uncommon to see their bum-cheeks or the beginning of the gusset of their tights. I don't think there is really much choice in wearing them as peer pressure is such a force. It takes some guts to walk round with a longer skirt.

TheHoneyBadger
I had that discussion with a student who tried to turn my uniform reminder into a sexism debate. I don't want to see anyone's underwear or bottoms. When boys had the low slung trouser trend, they were also told to dress appropriately. I also pointed out that I 100% support them in challenging any stupid arguments that their skirts need to be longer to avoid distracting the boys. The simple thing is there's rules for uniform and they apply to boys and girls, and they'll be equally reminded in my classroom.

Yeah, I don't see it as a sexism issue tbh. Personally I'd have everyone in trousers and polo shirts and jumpers though - neutral, simple, practical clothing that doesn't need ironing and doesn't cost a fortune.

And therein lies the problem. I wake her up to the reality of the male gaze, which she is happily oblivious to right now.

At 12, if she's not already aware of it, she will be soon. More worringly, she may experience it but not understand it. I personally think the most useful thing we can do for our daughters at this point is to help them to understand these things because certainly, when I was growing up and experiencing the catcalls and groping and all the rest, I was expected to just see that as normal and I have absolutely no intention of letting my daughter think that.

As for this situation, again, avoiding the word "modesty" is crazy. Explain that this other girl's mother may think it's more "modest". Discuss whether or not modesty is an acceptable thing to expect from girls and women and if so, how do you define it. Surely this is an opportunity to open a conversation about issues?

Newq

I understand wanting to shelter dd from the male gaze as long as possible. Covid actually bought us an extra year because where I live we are remote schooling. Actually, I’m realizing I should probably just make a thread before I got too far off topic.

At 12, if she's not already aware of it, she will be soon. More worringly, she may experience it but not understand it.

I agree with this. My first ever encounter with an ordinary or garden opportunistic fucker rubbing himself against me (a sadly typical experience for many adult women on the tube today) was about that age, and I had no awareness of why he was doing it.

@GoingThruTheMotions

Surely it's less acceptance than realising religious women are not in a position of enough power to change things?

Could you be more condescending?

I actually lived in a Muslim country. I don't think it is anti feminist to support Muslim women, whether they wear the hijab or not. Many wear it due to social and cultural pressure. Acknowledging that some women wear religious dress doesn't make you anti feminist. My own personal feelings are that it's cultural rather than religious, however that doesn't mean I am going to campaign against it, as that's more likely to impact women than the culture enforcing it. You have to pick your battles if you live in a deeply misogynistic culture.