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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transitioning young friend.

39 replies

standingupforitanywhere · 13/04/2021 07:54

I'm sad. A young woman I care for very deeply (like a daughter) is transitioning. I have no right to contact with her, so I'm extremely careful what I say. She can simply stop contacting me.

She's started testosterone, via self referral to an online GP. I'm sure you know which one. Her NHS GP won't refer her, because of the health complications of giving a young woman testosterone. She tells me he's afraid of being found liable. She knows about the impact on bone health and heart function. She isn't bothered about infertility. She has textbook answers to any concern I (extremely gently) raise.

She's saving for top surgery. She's 16 (nearly 18, apparently). She has no doubt. She is fully immersed in the world where this seems a sensible thing to do.

There's nothing else to do, is there?

OP posts:
IrenetheQuaint · 13/04/2021 07:56

Sadly, there probably isn't. Are you friends with her parents? What is their position on this?

standingupforitanywhere · 13/04/2021 08:04

Chaotic home background, sadly. She tells me family support her, however they are in the same situation as me- entirely dependent on her choosing to contact them. She lives independently, more or less. Socially transitioned some time ago. Care background, self harm.

OP posts:
nauticant · 13/04/2021 08:14

Is that a name-change fail OP?

standingupforitanywhere · 13/04/2021 08:32

Thank you @nauticant. I've reported.

I'm sure it used to automatically keep you on the name you used for the post.

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 13/04/2021 09:28

Chaotic home background, sadly. She tells me family support her, however they are in the same situation as me- entirely dependent on her choosing to contact them. She lives independently, more or less. Socially transitioned some time ago. Care background, self harm.

A sixteen year old with Care history is a child (regardless if they live independently/semi-independently). There should be statutory agencies involved in supporting her with a Duty of Care (including her GP) who should be concerned that the online business providing hormone blockers and/or cross sex hormones are operating without the required level of regulation and Safeguarding and beyond UK law.

Does she have a Leaving Care personal advisor /Social Worker? This statutory provision until age 25 is in recognition of the vulnerabilities of young people with Care history:
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/683701/Extending_Personal_Adviser_support_to_all_care_leavers_to_age_25.pdf

The founder of the business, Dr Helen Webberley is suspended by GMC and was also found guilty in December 2018 of illegally providing unregulated healthcare services from her home.
www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/helen-mike-webberley-gender-gp-16297750?

Telegraph 'How children can order life-altering transgender drugs from their bedroom
Online healthcare clinic uses loophole to flout NHS rules and prescribe sex change drugs to under 16s without parental consent'
By
Investigations Team
26 February 2021
"GenderGP, an online transgender healthcare services clinic, uses a legal loophole to flout NHS rules to issue valid prescriptions which can then be used to obtain the medication from pharmacies in Britain.
The sex change, or “cross-sex” hormones irreversibly change users’ bodies over the course of treatment and can also leave users infertile.
An undercover Telegraph reporter posing as a 15-year old girl was prescribed testosterone – the male hormone, which is a controlled drug – after just two Skype appointments with counsellors and one Skype appointment with a doctor at the online clinic." (continues)
archive.fo/EKbP5#selection-157.0-165.251

'Exclusive: Online clinic willing to prescribe sex change drugs to children without asking them to talk to doctor
GenderGP doctor tells reporters posing as parents of 12-year-old that he may be able to obtain drugs after appointments with counsellor'
By
Investigations Team
28 February 2021
(extract)
"The revelations will fuel concerns about the level of medical oversight at the clinic, which flouts NHS rules by exploiting a legal loophole that makes prescriptions signed by doctors registered anywhere in the EU valid for use at British pharmacies. (continues)

The lack of medical oversight at the online clinic is in stark contrast to rules in England and Wales, which were tightened in December. Doctors can only prescribe puberty blockers to children under 16 where the decision, taken jointly by at least two specialist doctors directly involved in their care, is endorsed by a court order.
GenderGP's apparent willingness to prescribe drugs to children who have not seen a doctor is not the only issue likely to concern parents and medical practitioners. (continues)
archive.fo/tzzDb#selection-327.0-331.164

relevant thread: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3324578-Vunerabilities-of-Looked-After-Children-Social-Work-CP-restricted-by-affirmation-requirement-Trans-Youth-in-Care-Toolkit

WindyPudding · 13/04/2021 09:33

I think one thing you could say if you haven’t already - though it’s your call to make of course - is that a lot of girls have felt this way and later changed their minds, despite feeling as strongly as she does now. So although you know she doesn’t see that happening, you are there to support her even if that happens one day. Because girls in this situation are surrounded by affirmation and then feel they can’t go back on it, knowing there’s a channel for her if her feelings change could be very helpful to her down the line.

Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 13/04/2021 09:59

All you can do is reassure her that you are there for her.

standingupforitanywhere · 13/04/2021 11:17

Thank you ROwan. You are a wonder. I'll read it and send something to her SW, whose details I still have. They are fully aware as she asked for funding and was refused. Presumably they are caught in the same trap of attempting to stop her, and being shut out.

Good points, Windy and MyArse. I think she must know my concern as I'm not cheerleading and am saying 'I read something about...' rather a lot.

We had a conversation about people my age having seen these sorts of things before, and seeing a wider context than that of a young person. That many several mothers of DC in her primary school class are now with a same sex partner and no one blinks an eye. That I'm not naive or ignorant about people's complex personal histories and identities. That things change. I told her that I was adamant I didn't want children at her age. I ended up working with children, having children and being very much a motherly mother type. Much to my own surprise! I may message her later.

It breaks my heart to hear her say people shouldn't rush into this, because it's serious. They should be mature and well informed. She's known for 2 or 3 years now. 🤦‍♀️

I've also pointed out that as a girl she doesn't have the time pressure to trans that a boy may have. (I apologised for needing to use that language first.)

Damn I'm sad.

OP posts:
Shizuku · 13/04/2021 11:27

"There's nothing else to do, is there?"

Here are a couple of things you can do. Firstly, use his chosen name - this can really help:

www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(18)30085-5/fulltext

And be sure to use the correct pronouns as that is also likely to be extremely beneficial to his mental health:

www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2020/?section=Supporting-Transgender-Nonbinary-Youth

ArabellaScott · 13/04/2021 11:32

I'm so sorry, OP. This must be heartbreaking. I think offering to listen without judgement would probably be the most helpful thing you personally could do for her. Letting her know you are there to help.

Then again, maybe she is desperately looking for boundaries. This could be a form of self harm. Sometimes it's asking for someone to help.

I would say that between 16 and 18 is a long time! So - it may start to right itself in due course. But it sounds like she really needs some solidity and guidance in her life. Sending you best wishes.

standingupforitanywhere · 13/04/2021 11:37

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Shizuku · 13/04/2021 11:46

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ for repeating withdrawn message. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

R0wantrees · 13/04/2021 11:51

I'll read it and send something to her SW, whose details I still have. They are fully aware as she asked for funding and was refused. Presumably they are caught in the same trap of attempting to stop her, and being shut out.

The SW has a Duty of Care and responsibility to Safeguard.

Community Care (Social Care publication)
Summary of High Court Judicial Review and SW perspective:

(extract)
"On 1 December, a landmark judgment was delivered in the case of Bell & Anor v The Tavistock And Portman NHS Foundation Trust [2020] EWHC 3274. The High Court was asked to determine whether children experiencing gender dysphoria could give informed consent to receive puberty-suppressing drugs, by achieving Gillick competence.

The court found that competence to consent to such treatment was “highly unlikely” for 13-year-olds and “very doubtful” for those aged 14 or 15. While consent can be presumed for young people aged 16 and 17, medical professionals may want to seek court approval before treatment if there are doubts as to whether it would be in the young person’s long-term best interests." (continues)

www.communitycare.co.uk/2020/12/11/puberty-blockers-consent-treatment-analysis-high-courts-ruling/

When Dr Mike Webberley was suspended by GMC the cases cited were young female patients. In one case acute psychiatric patient care was compromised and it was a MH nurse who lodged the complaint.
The Drs Webberley announced they were moving their business outside of UK at this point.

Wales Online on 19th May 2019

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/helen-mike-webberley-gender-gp-16297750
(extract)
"Mike Webberley was also given an interim suspension from practicing on Friday after a Medical Practitioners Tribunal.

The firm said the tribunal followed a report into Dr Webberley's actions commissioned by the GMC to provide an "expert opinion on the care given to three younger trans patients".

"The three patients in question were all young people. One was a trans boy who was finding the onset of female puberty and chest development distressing, in whom Dr Webberley commenced puberty blockers in line with current UK guidance.

"The second was a young trans boy who was prescribed puberty blockers by Dr Helen Webberley at the onset of puberty, and Dr Mike Webberley took over his care when Dr Helen Webberley was temporarily suspended in May 2017.

"The third was a patient who was suffering from gender dysphoria and was being prescribed a large number of psychiatric medicines to keep his mental distress at bay."

Tribunal Judge Siobhan Goodrich
Primary Health Lists
First-tier Tribunal (Health Education and Social Care)
Date Issued: 23 January 2019
(extract)
"16. We weighed the impact of an order for national disqualification as an NHS performer upon the interests of Dr [Helen] Webberley against the public interest, which includes the protection of patients and the efficient use of NHS resources. We re satisfied that in all the circumstances it is fair, reasonable and proportionate to make a direction for national disqualification.

17.We therefore direct that Dr Webberley is nationally disqualified from:
• the supplementary lists prepared by each Local Health Board,
• the lists under section 49 prepared by each Local Health Board,
• the lists corresponding to the lists under section 49 prepared by
each Local Health Board by virtue of regulations made under
section 103,
• the lists corresponding to the lists mentioned above prepared by
the National Health Service Commissioning Board under or by virtue of the National Health Service Act 2006. (continues)

We have found that her reasons for refusing access to her practice on 5 October were disingenuous and manipulative. She wanted to prevent access or investigation. The respondent has satisfied us that she lacks the essential attributes of integrity and candour which are essential to suitability. She also lacks insight. We do not consider that the attributes of suitability are divisible as between private and NHS practice because suitability is a concept that goes to the very core of practitioner’s true character and attitude. Dr Webberley’s attitude is one of entrenched resistance to regulation and is highly coloured by her lack of integrity and candour." (continues)

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3598778-Dr-Helen-and-Dr-Mike-Webberley-matters-of-public-record

WoolOfBat · 13/04/2021 11:56

It sounds like you are a great support for your friend OP. They are lucky to have you.

Where are all these people who misgender deliberately? I have only seen concern for biological women and girls on this board. Is this a reference to the sex offender threads? I believe that we are allowed to use the pronouns which relate to sex (and not gender) when we are talking about sex crimes committed by trans people?

R0wantrees · 13/04/2021 12:04

I'll read it and send something to her SW, whose details I still have. They are fully aware as she asked for funding and was refused.

see also website:
EVIDENCE-BASED SOCIAL WORK ALLIANCE (EBSWA)

"As a coalition of qualified practitioners, academics and social work students, we came together in response to our individual concerns regarding the uncritical use of gender identity theory in social work and other professions. As a group we believe social workers have a responsibility in law, underpinned by professional ethics and values, to promote and uphold the safeguarding of children. Children and young people with gender dysphoria are presenting to the profession and we are being silenced in our attempts to understand and discuss the evidence-base approaches to exploring this phenomenon."
www.ebswa.org/

twitter: twitter.com/ebswa

BlackForestCake · 13/04/2021 12:14

Does she regret self harming?

ArabellaScott · 13/04/2021 12:25

there's a lot of people on these boards who misgender deliberately

No, there aren't. It's not allowed to misgender people. MNHQ are very strict on that.

howmanyhats · 13/04/2021 13:36

If this was my young friend, I'd try to remind myself that the gender issues are symptoms of deeper issues, and try to support her with those issues. I don't envy you walking this tightrope - as I expect you are well aware, transitioning may be her coping mechanism for trauma, and so she may well push you away if she perceives you as directly attacking the thing she's using as a crutch right now, no matter how damaging that crutch is for her.

I've read in a couple of detranistioners stories about how a change of scene, getting away from screens and their online worlds and using their bodies more helped them get over dysphoria.

With being there for her, can you make time for her to do stuff she enjoys that's away from her normal world? Get out into the world together, if she's up for that?

Webberly will be back in court in June I think. She's only suspended right now, but she may be struck off completely then. Can't be a moment too soon IMO!

standingupforitanywhere · 13/04/2021 13:44

Useful points, thank you.

Unfortunately hats, I won't see her enough to help in that way. I mean, I would if I could but I'd don't think it will happen. I will certainly see what opportunities I can find! She's only really been regularly back in touch since lockdown.

I'd be very pleased if Webberly was struck off.
Will kids be able to get it elsewhere, do you think? It's shocking. Really shocking.

OP posts:
vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 13/04/2021 14:55

name change alert??

I do agree, it is shocking. I would not be sad if Webberly was struck off, and I say that as a person with a young friend who gets medication via them. My friend will be absolutely devastated, but I will not be sad to see their care transfer to someone who works within guidelines and seeks to first do no harm.

I'd make a point of discussing the vaginal atrophy, which is shocking and very painful. It seems the pelvic pain and vaginal atrophy is little mentioned as a side effect of cross sex hormones, and not many of the community discuss it. I've heard Keira Bell mention it though. It's bad enough for an 80 year old woman, but, for an 18 year old? Rough.

ASugarr · 13/04/2021 14:59

The best advice I can give is to ensure he knows there are professionals out there and charities that can help provide support so they are not alone on this journey. Plus it means they will be able to safeguard any potential issues with his transition and ensure their safety.

GreyhoundG1rl · 13/04/2021 15:01

[quote Shizuku]"There's nothing else to do, is there?"

Here are a couple of things you can do. Firstly, use his chosen name - this can really help:

www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(18)30085-5/fulltext

And be sure to use the correct pronouns as that is also likely to be extremely beneficial to his mental health:

www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2020/?section=Supporting-Transgender-Nonbinary-Youth[/quote]
You have completely misunderstood what op was asking. Surprise, surprise Hmm

Creepygnochi · 13/04/2021 15:06

As the mother of a transdaughter who went on blockers as a teen and is medically transitioning now as a very young adult, you just really need to buckle up and go along for the ride while offering as much support as you can. I know it is a MH disorder, and so do the whole pretending and affirming thing to the best of my ability, exactly the same as I do for my dd with scitzoeffective disorder. Because that's what's best for both her mental health and the health of our relationship.

R0wantrees · 13/04/2021 15:09

I'd be very pleased if Webberly was struck off.
Will kids be able to get it elsewhere, do you think? It's shocking. Really shocking.

The evidence that is coming in from NICE /NHS England does not appear to meet thresholds for safe practice. How children (under 18) are treated will likely not be determined until the Cass Report. Testosterone is a Class C under Misuse of Drugs Act so supplying (especially to a child) without a prescription could have consequences.

SEGM March 31, 2021
'New Systematic Reviews of Puberty Blockers and Cross-Sex Hormones Published by NICE
Weighing potential benefits against profound long-term uncertainties'
(extract)
"In 2020, the UK National Institute for Health and Care Excellence (NICE) undertook two systematic evidence reviews of the use of GnRH agonists (also known as "puberty blockers") and cross-sex hormones as treatments for gender dysphoric patients

SarahAllenLondon · 13/04/2021 15:20

[quote Shizuku]"There's nothing else to do, is there?"

Here are a couple of things you can do. Firstly, use his chosen name - this can really help:

www.jahonline.org/article/S1054-139X(18)30085-5/fulltext

And be sure to use the correct pronouns as that is also likely to be extremely beneficial to his mental health:

www.thetrevorproject.org/survey-2020/?section=Supporting-Transgender-Nonbinary-Youth[/quote]
Just wanted to re-iterate this point. Confirm their chosen gender and be gentle in information that lets them know that they can have that gender and live in their body for while and live it out as it were. Giving room for all of the possibilities.

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