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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Times article about Age of Consent, Stonewall, Alba

230 replies

Wandawomble · 12/04/2021 09:23

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/48c9ae6e-9adf-11eb-8da6-6f8eecc82ac3?shareToken=1d6c72638a41d774b21c06787d90f6d3

I know there are other threads about this but a bit of sunlight and all that...

OP posts:
ANewCreation · 13/04/2021 13:41

Any idea who these nebulous 'other groups' - who are currently offered the protection of legal frameworks due to their reduced capacity to consent - might be?

I've been wondering about that, too, ANewCreation.

Dementia patients? Trafficking victims? In the absence of specifics, the reader is entirely free to fill in the blanks.

Thanks, CharlieParley.

My understanding is that legal frameworks around capacity, particularly in the UK, are there to act primarily as a protective mechanism.

This may seem paternalistic but there is always a balance to be achieved between the competing human right of the individual to choose something (which may be actively harmful to themselves) and the duty of the state or society or institutions to protect the vulnerable from harm.

Capacity to consent is often really hard to assess and so with regard, say, to mental health treatments or deprivation of liberty safeguards, there are best interests assessors whose job it is to establish what the best interests are of the individual patient.

If a patient has capacity they are able to make decisions which are entirely contrary to those all their medical team might recommend because they have the ability (capacity) to weigh up the information and come to a different conclusion.

This is something the average child or young adolescent developmentally struggles to do - hence the safeguards of consent laws.

I note that the second Times article in stating ILGA said it “categorically, and in no uncertain terms, does not advocate to eliminate or lower the general age of consent, nor supports paedophilia in any way, shape or form”.
also carefully omits the part where ILGA said it had never supported paedophilia which was a blatant lie.

"In 1994, ILGA expelled NAMBLA and two other paedophile groups at its World Conference in New York. These groups had joined ILGA at an earlier stage of ILGA’s development, at a time when ILGA did not have in place administrative procedures to scrutinize the constitutions and policies of groups seeking membership. At no time, however, did ILGA support or endorse their positions, and these groups were expelled precisely because their aims were incompatible with those of ILGA."

Hmm

Yeah, that's what 'never' means...

ilga.org/ilga-ecosoc-status-controversy

Curious too that the journalist has dropped the 'bigot' quote from the SNP charmer but is now quoting the Greens lgbt wing, possibly the one whom we saw on Glinner's blog?

This pretence around ILGA or Stonewall not knowing what an adolescent means but castigating someone for pointing out that adolescents are potentially very young people - and from CharlieParley's graphic, some of the age of consent laws around the world are of very young girls (puberty? 12,13) - somehow reminds me of the open letter condemning Kathleen Stock which after 100s of virtue signalling academics had already signed it, then needed a serious correction because the main point was factually incorrect (she actually did not support the amendments to the GRA rather than the GRA itself) but then still continued to garner signatures.

dailynous.com/2021/01/05/kathleen-stock-receives-obe-philosophers-opposing-honor/

Can these people genuinely not see the problems they are creating by this dangerous muddle-think or are they actively trying to pull the wool over collective eyes?

The effect will be the same...

nauticant · 13/04/2021 14:10

Having spent yesterday scolding people on twitter, the journalist Mark McLaughlin is now wading into the comments under his latest article telling people they don't understand what "adolescent" means. Again, odd.

RabbitOfCaerbannog · 13/04/2021 14:28

@nauticant

Having spent yesterday scolding people on twitter, the journalist Mark McLaughlin is now wading into the comments under his latest article telling people they don't understand what "adolescent" means. Again, odd.
He really is doubling down. It's a word that has a very clear meaning and a meaning which would lead many to believe it encompasses 10 year olds. Puberty can start at that age. It is a perfectly rational takeaway from reading that word in the document. Why would a journalist, who presumably has a decent grasp of English, be arguing black is white so vehemently when his job is to scrutinise? You'd hope a journalist would be particularly alert to the behaviour of organisations in receipt of public funds. Even if it was a simple mistake there's no doubt this could be read as Stonewall backing calls to lower the age of consent (and numerous other dodgy anti-feminist recommendations). What is his editor thinking?
nauticant · 13/04/2021 14:34

It's a good example of progressive Establishment thinking that means there needs to be firm push-back if Stonewall is perceived to be under attack. If defending Stonewall in this way runs the risk of undermining safeguarding, well, safeguarding will just have to take the hit.

Tibtom · 13/04/2021 14:37

I have seen a variety of definitions of adolescents and they seem to encompass down to 10 years old. Once again, if this is not what they meant they they should rewrite that paragraph to say what they meant. 'those aged 15 to 18 years old' is really not difficult to write and is precise.

Tibtom · 13/04/2021 14:39

@nauticant

It's a good example of progressive Establishment thinking that means there needs to be firm push-back if Stonewall is perceived to be under attack. If defending Stonewall in this way runs the risk of undermining safeguarding, well, safeguarding will just have to take the hit.
I guess it is in the Ts & Cs of their diversity schemes.
RabbitOfCaerbannog · 13/04/2021 14:48

It's a good example of progressive Establishment thinking that means there needs to be firm push-back if Stonewall is perceived to be under attack.

RabbitOfCaerbannog · 13/04/2021 14:49

Posted too soon, meant to say YY to that

StandUpStraight · 13/04/2021 19:20

The person who wrote that article is absolutely going to town in the comments section, reposting the same thing over and over like a malfunctioning bot. Apparently he asked Stonewall and they said “nothing to see here”, so he stopped looking. Top class journalism.

RabbitOfCaerbannog · 13/04/2021 19:44

I once had a conversation with an individual who works for a large uk media outfit who said "Stonewall said self-Id is fine, it's not going to cause any issues" and they viewed that as the final say on the matter. Nothing to see here. No curiosity as to why women were against it. Taking Stonewall's word as sacrosanct.

transbadger · 13/04/2021 20:02

Is there's something to the thought that some people never really grew up, never properly developed past a certain age, and therefore still associate with and think of themselves as adults like their younger selves?

I've met individuals who strike me as being like this. All very progressive, very woke. They all have a similar manner about them that just hasn't embraced adulthood in any traditional sense. And they all parrot the same opinions and have weird ideas about what children should be exposed to.

Does this leave the door wide open to people speaking for children and children's rights who are not equipped to do so? It feels to me like they assume children are more capable and better equipped to deal with adult themes than they actually are- because they themselves never developed past their teenage years.

Not the only reason, I'm sure. But a pet theory of mine. Some recent efforts at "debate" on these threads has cemented this opinion for me.

Young and foolish, trying to educate the young and foolish.

🦡🌈🤍

ArabellaScott · 13/04/2021 20:08

Young and foolish trying to educate the older and wiser, quite often.

transbadger · 13/04/2021 20:14

@ArabellaScott

Young and foolish trying to educate the older and wiser, quite often.

Oh yes definitely. I mean in schools.

NiceGerbil · 13/04/2021 22:57

There was another thread on this.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4215949-ILGA-Feminist-Declaration-Stonewall-Lowering-the-age-of-consent-to-10

I thought I posted on it but looks like I didn't Confused

I thought that eg the HIV thing they may be thinking of countries if it's used as a tool by the police etc to harass/ threaten/ coerce women and girls in prostitution.

However, and this is the big however, it's not specific enough. As with other items, there needs to be context. Which issues are they addressing with this and why, where. Will their proposal work in practice in the context of the place it's aimed at etc

Without that it's just no use at all.

NiceGerbil · 13/04/2021 23:00

Maybe there was a third thread as I'm sure I posted and put a link to the doc.

I can't actually find the doc on the site, can anyone else?

Why put a statement defending it if the actual subject of the defence is not easily found? I would have expected a link to the doc in the statement. That is really weird.

NiceGerbil · 13/04/2021 23:07

And the age of consent thing. Again. What situations are they hoping to improve? Where? Why not give an actual age?

WHO etc have 18 as the age for consent to sex. What ages do they mean? Why no context or examples it's all just ??

Adolescence means from puberty up. The bit where you mature from a child to an adult. I mean that's just what it means.

I would have expected them stonewall etc to say oh yeah, well we didn't mean that obviously. We'll update it to be clearer.

Why the hell would they not do that?

I find that really concerning.

I also find it concerning that anyone pointing out it's on the face of it pretty awful, rather than being responded to or reassured is just labelled a baddie.

Yeah the document and the response is really concerning.

transbadger · 13/04/2021 23:15

@NiceGerbil

And the age of consent thing. Again. What situations are they hoping to improve? Where? Why not give an actual age?

WHO etc have 18 as the age for consent to sex. What ages do they mean? Why no context or examples it's all just ??

Adolescence means from puberty up. The bit where you mature from a child to an adult. I mean that's just what it means.

I would have expected them stonewall etc to say oh yeah, well we didn't mean that obviously. We'll update it to be clearer.

Why the hell would they not do that?

I find that really concerning.

I also find it concerning that anyone pointing out it's on the face of it pretty awful, rather than being responded to or reassured is just labelled a baddie.

Yeah the document and the response is really concerning.

This goes hand in hand with calling children "young adults"

Nice and vague with ever-shifting age ranges.

SmokedDuck · 13/04/2021 23:21

transbager

Yes, there is a whole group of people who don't seem capable of understanding that there is a qualitative difference in the way not yet mature children and teens think compared to adults. And they do seem to be these liberal progressives, typically, who themselves seem not that mature.

I've wondered what the link is as well.

NiceGerbil · 13/04/2021 23:23

I have even looked on the search docs bit on their site for the document.

I can't find it anywhere.

Can anyone else?

If they've removed the doc they're defending from the site that's just.. ???!!!???

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 13/04/2021 23:41

@NiceGerbil

I have even looked on the search docs bit on their site for the document.

I can't find it anywhere.

Can anyone else?

If they've removed the doc they're defending from the site that's just.. ???!!!???

Linked to from here:

ilga.org/CSW64-Womens-Rights-Caucus-feminist-declaration-Beijing25

NiceGerbil · 13/04/2021 23:45

Ah cool.
They haven't made it easy to find! I found it easier a few days ago.
Not linking it from the statement is odd as well.

ANewCreation · 14/04/2021 00:15

From the comments BTL today, I found an answer to who the 'other groups' were in UK law who might be affected. Not good, I'm afraid Sad

"The "groups" affected by laws limiting legal capacity to provide consent to sexual activity are children, family members (incest), persons who have sex with a person in a position of trust, persons with a mental disorder and 16 and 17 year olds engaged in prostitution.

Which of those laws does Stonewall or ILGA think should be repealed or eliminated?"

Datun · 14/04/2021 01:39

I cant believe stonewall and IGLA won't give the definite age they mean or define these other groups themself.

Do they honestly think this is going away? Or their lack of transparency doesn't make them look dodgy?

Igneococcus · 14/04/2021 07:05

Now someone has left Alba because of this:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/4485938e-9ca8-11eb-a908-ec96e110073e?shareToken=f59d7073d8cf56bc1f28b6620c06507e

Tibtom · 14/04/2021 07:14

I am not sure I trust The Times reporting on this matter. (or rather, I don't)

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