Prince Phillip

[chickadeeee]

His passing is very sad, however aibu to be annoyed about the constant reference to him 'giving things up' to be the Queen's consort.
How many women 'give up' their lives when they get married, would the conversation be the same if he were King and his wife had passed away

The point is, that if you reverse the sexes, it would be rare indeed that eulogies for a wife to a king would be phrased in this way.

The beloved queen mother was seen as a national treasure, her support, solid strength and influence over George VI is often talked about. Just as PP is being spoken about today.

I really don't think that acknowledging a lifelong and supportive spouse has anything to do with their sex.

@Babdoc

Well, you can look at it negatively like that, OP. Or you can see the positive - that he was a great role model for men, showing that they can prioritise their wife’s career while still being an admirable bloke with interests of his own. And I think he would have been the first to dismiss all the eulogies and talk of his “sacrifices” - he would have seen it as simply doing his duty.

This.

A fantastic role model - yeah he was marvelous . Racism is such a good thing for young people to learn .

@Floisme

I think comparisons with younger royalty are spurious. I was born in the fifties; my dad was a caring man and a loving father but he wasn't there for my birth, as was the norm. I doubt it even occurred to either him or my mum that it was an option.

This was Prince Philip's world. I can disagree with the monarchy as an institution and still acknowledge that he was a man's man, living in man's world who accepted that his role was to walk behind the Queen and that he appeared to do so with good grace. As to how well he took it in private - well only once person really knows the answer to that and I doubt she'll be telling.

As a slight aside, I find it astonishing how little we actually know about either the Queen or Prince Philip. I think that's a tribute to them both.

Yes, I totally agree with this. All kinds of things which might be normal now and easy enough for someone to do had quite a different social and psychological connotations in different times.

I think it was probably a bit of a blow to have to give up his naval career at that point, by all accounts who was good at it and loved it.

Marrying into the rf is a bit like marrying into a diplomatic family, or to a priest or missionary I think. It's a commitment to a job in a way, even if you aren't the one being officially employed.

Hmmm. One of the stories about him in the Guardian today is about him threatening to put the Queen out of the car when she was scared by him driving too fast. I thought that was quite telling... public versus private power...

The queen was equally feisty when it came to cars, LordEmsworth*. There is a lovely story about her having to entertain the Saudi ruler at Balmoral, in the days when women weren’t allowed to drive at all in Saudi Arabia. She insisted on driving him herself, and flung him round the estate at breakneck speed! She, of course, was in the ATS during the war, and had driven and stripped down lorries, so probably took great pleasure in striking a blow for women!

I think the actions themselves need to be viewed through the contextual lens of on the of most archaic, anachronistic institutions of the western world.
Might have been slightly noteworthy but a drop in the ocean in context. I've certainly read less than admirable things he said and done. Given the platform they are privileged to have, if he had more than a fleeting thought about female equality, he could have done more.
And the pps degrading the jobs that female members of the family had are an excellent case in point as to how much harder women have to work just to be taken seriously. Given Diana was barely out of childhood when she held that job, she didn't have much of a chance to make something more 'impressive' of herself. Similarly, Kate held a degree in art history, something that could have led to a career that was fulfilling for her. Who knows?

@LordEmsworth

Hmmm. One of the stories about him in the Guardian today is about him threatening to put the Queen out of the car when she was scared by him driving too fast. I thought that was quite telling... public versus private power...

How does that story get into the public domain? The Queen presumably didn't make it public.

@customwatkins

The point is, that if you reverse the sexes, it would be rare indeed that eulogies for a wife to a king would be phrased in this way.

The beloved queen mother was seen as a national treasure, her support, solid strength and influence over George VI is often talked about. Just as PP is being spoken about today.

I really don't think that acknowledging a lifelong and supportive spouse has anything to do with their sex.

Agree re the Queen Mother.

Apparently the Queen Mother's implacable opposition prevented Edward VIII and Wallis Simpson being rehabilitated in to public life - well done Queen Mum.

@Babdoc

The queen was equally feisty when it came to cars, LordEmsworth*. There is a lovely story about her having to entertain the Saudi ruler at Balmoral, in the days when women weren’t allowed to drive at all in Saudi Arabia. She insisted on driving him herself, and flung him round the estate at breakneck speed! She, of course, was in the ATS during the war, and had driven and stripped down lorries, so probably took great pleasure in striking a blow for women!

I have heard it said that she learned to drive during the Blitz, and for the rest of her life drove as if a building might fall on the car at any moment if she didn't hammer it.

I suspect that my sympathies might be with Prince Philip about wanting her to stop it -- and anyway, if she was driving at speed how exactly would he have been able to "put her out of the car"?

Irish here so no royalist, and I know there are many racist and inappropriate gaffes one could point out about Philip. Rightly so. He was a creature of his time with all the inherent prejudices. I still think it's important to call out how his life role evolved in a time when it was unthinkable a man would always be subservient to his wife. Nor do I think many husbands at the time would be thrilled to be told they legally could not pass on their name. And no matter how many riches and titles and all of it come with the job, most of it strikes me as crushing boredom to be honest. I agree his parenting skill was old school, and seeing Charles with the maturity of a middle aged woman I can see how different father and son were, and no matter how privileged you are, I can see how a gentle foppish child didn't flourish under his parents. I'm sure Philip's parenting was atrocious by today's standards, but my own adored grandmother, who raised 11 kids on a single salary after she was widowed was phenomenal but her parenting approach was similiar to a military barrack commander. The body language between and the Prince to the end of their days did speak of love and tenderness. They were human beings at the end of the day who made the most of it, and I think they were very adept at moving with the times. Flawed and yes much to judge from their parenting and approach given the perspective of the times we live in, but I have quite a bit of lingering fondness for them as a couple.

The Queen and Prince Philip were both incredibly gorgeous young people when they met, with an apparently fiery private life....

I bet he was more than happy to give up what carer he had to be with the beautiful woman he loved, have four kids, many grandkids, travel the world in luxury, lived healthily until nearly 100 yrs old to see great grand children - a life well lived, I reckon.

A bit of a tangent, but has anyone been to Osborne House? The family home Victoria set up with Albert. It's beautiful but so sad. I can still feel her grief in every room - they really did love each other and also, really had the hots for each other.

I feel very sad for the Queen right now.

Oh it irritates me so much! Gosh, poor soul giving up his career to live a life of unimaginable wealth and privilege which allowed to him to devote most of his time to travelling the world and his passion projects. Yes, fascinating life and yes, years of public service - but hardly living a life in dutiful poverty.

I think Philip did all right for himself.

Well exactly. When it’s women marrying in they are accused of being gold diggers and are seen as having done well for themselves, of marrying up.

Historically men have married for status and money, especially as their wives’ assets traditionally became theirs. But no one thinks of Prince Philip as having done alright for himself for marrying up let alone being a gold digger.

But come on, he’s had a cushy life. He’s said some dodgy crap, cheated quite publicly on the Queen and gotten away with it. I’d say his sacrifices weren’t too strenuous!

He had a promising naval career and could have risen quite high on his own merit. Waity Katie never pulled her finger out to start a career.
As an accessories buyer at Jigsaw, she demanded a four day week so she could spend long weekends with William - like you do, when you've just started your first job. And even then she only stuck it out for a few months.

Waity Katie never pulled her finger out to start a career.

Beautiful example of what I’m talking about, thank you. Woman blamed for prioritising husband over career. Man praised for prioritising wife over career.

I agree his parenting skill was old school....I'm sure Philip's parenting was atrocious by today's standards,

Considering his mother ending up in a mental hospital, his father taking little interest and going off with his mistress. If he didn't have connection's he'd have been taken into care.

Could you imagine a social worker today, Em Yes my nephew will be fine, he's going to bordering school hundreds of miles away and will spent holidays between my house and his 4 sisters, just depending on what's most convenient at that particular holiday.

No wonder he was a bit of an old school parent. But he seemed to recognise kids need to stand on their own two feet, as demonstrated by the DoE Awards. I always assumed someone else came up with the idea but actually it was his idea.

Allegedly the Duke of Edinburgh Award was strongly influenced by his Headmaster at Gordonstoun.

Ah thanks for correcting me, telling your wife off for being scared of your driving is in fact a feminist act .

@AskingQuestionsAllTheTime - it is, in fact, possible to stop the car even if you are driving fast. Bit disingenuous of you to pretend you didn't know that...

@MissBarbary It was in Ben Pimlott's biography of the Queen, seems unlikely he would have made it up but you're right that it's possible.

@katy1213

He had a promising naval career and could have risen quite high on his own merit. Waity Katie never pulled her finger out to start a career. As an accessories buyer at Jigsaw, she demanded a four day week so she could spend long weekends with William - like you do, when you've just started your first job. And even then she only stuck it out for a few months.

Waity Katie yuck.

But negotiating terms in a new job is a pretty standard thing, she can’t demand anything. They can say no.

I'm inclined to think that the consort role very much reflected the sexist attitudes of the time.

Despite the long reign of Queen Victoria, monarch's were supposed to be male and therefore their spouses were only required to be decorative.

That Prince Phillip and Prince Albert before him actually did stuff, didn't make them wrong, but what a shame it originated from people having low expectations of women.

@Babdoc

Well, you can look at it negatively like that, OP. Or you can see the positive - that he was a great role model for men, showing that they can prioritise their wife’s career while still being an admirable bloke with interests of his own. And I think he would have been the first to dismiss all the eulogies and talk of his “sacrifices” - he would have seen it as simply doing his duty.

Yes, agreed.

I don't like the monarchy as an institution and I think the privilege and deference involved is bad for everyone, including the royals themselves. But, as we seem to be stuck with it for now, I look upon it as a kind of social contract: You enjoy immense wealth and privilege and, in return, you spend your entire life (or at least until your health completely gives out) in public service, most of which will be mind numbingly dull. And you never, ever complain. As recent history and current events show, many royals, and particularly their spouses, find it hard to adapt to this deal. Prince Philip did and at times, he even managed to make it look easy. Good for him.

Lockdownbear
But he seemed to recognise kids need to stand on their own two feet, as demonstrated by the DoE Awards. I always assumed someone else came up with the idea but actually it was his idea.

Within the past two days I have listened to Prince Philip himself saying that he got the idea from an initiative of his headmaster at Gordonstoun.

LordEmsworth
telling your wife off for being scared of your driving is in fact a feminist act

Hers was notoriously terrifying, so it's quite possible that was six of one and half a dozen of the other.