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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

New book "Trans" by Helen Joyce

75 replies

Cismyfatarse · 06/04/2021 18:54

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Trans-When-Ideology-Meets-Reality/dp/0861540492/ref=sr11_1?dchild=1&keywords=Helen+Joyce&qid=1617731518&sr=8-1

I have just pre-ordered this. It looks really interesting and is endorsed by Jenni Murray amongst others. I think there is also the chance of a fund to try to get copies out to MPs etc. I am certain it will be worth a read. It would also be good if people could try to order it via libraries so that there are copies bought into local branches.

OP posts:
Manderleyagain · 06/04/2021 22:08

I haven't read it but tere is a new book called histories of the trans child, by an American academic who's a trans woman. She is not a historian. But it claims to put evidence that 'trans kids' are not a new phenomenon. It was reviewed in the guardian.

BraveBananaBadge · 06/04/2021 22:20

See there's at least one woman in the replies who's been blocked by OJ merely for pointing out the book hasn't been published yet and he could save his critique til he's read it. I knew he was handy with the block function, but that seems daft even for him.

MrsWooster · 06/04/2021 22:30

As one of the OJ blocked, what were his insights into the book..?

ArabellaScott · 06/04/2021 22:32

Xiaoxiong Agree, I'd love to read some thoughtful, well argued arguments for TWAW etc. Yet to hear/read anything that amounts to anything convincing. I looked up the books you rec'd, but they seem to be very much US focussed, and I think the situation there is perhaps culturally and politically so wildly different from here that it's a whole other kettle of fish. Any UK resources that argue for gender identity etc?

IDanielRadcliffe · 06/04/2021 22:35

There’s a good interview with HJ on one of Meghan Murphy’s podcasts if anyone’s interested.

YouNoob · 06/04/2021 22:43

So glad it's finally coming out. I luffs her. Will go and order now.

YouNoob · 06/04/2021 22:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

YouNoob · 06/04/2021 22:45

@IDanielRadcliffe

There’s a good interview with HJ on one of Meghan Murphy’s podcasts if anyone’s interested.

And on Benjamin Boyce last year.

JustSpeculation · 06/04/2021 22:47

I've just been watching her interview with Boyce.

She is a deeply impressive woman.

Manderleyagain · 06/04/2021 23:01

Any UK resources that argue for gender identity etc? There is Sally Hines book " is gender fluid?" It seems to be written in a simple way for a young audience I would say, but it does lay out some of the claims for that way of viewing sex & gender, rather than beibg a personal story. Have a look on Google books.

ArabellaScott · 06/04/2021 23:36

Thanks, Manderley. I'll see if I can have a look.

yourhairiswinterfire · 06/04/2021 23:42

As one of the OJ blocked, what were his insights into the book..?

Lord Philip Hunt tweeted 'Great to see' in response to Helen announcing the release date for her book.

This was OJ's response...

New book "Trans" by Helen Joyce
ThatsShitTryHarder · 07/04/2021 00:03

“Dumpster fire”?

Is LOJ identifying as American now?

Defaultname · 07/04/2021 00:04

@yourhairiswinterfire

As one of the OJ blocked, what were his insights into the book..?

Lord Philip Hunt tweeted 'Great to see' in response to Helen announcing the release date for her book.

This was OJ's response...

I hadn't realised that 'dumpster' as 'a large waste container'was used that way in the UK. I'm familiar with it used as in "Mr.Jones took the opportunity to do a huge dumpster on women".
BraveBananaBadge · 07/04/2021 07:54

Yes, it was Helen speaking to Meghan Murphy that got me into the Feminist Current podcast. Wonder if the Economist's podcasts will cover it when it comes out - they've been consistently good and factual on the issue too.

BoreOfWhabylon · 07/04/2021 13:36

#84 on the bestsellers list now!

Thanks Owen Smile

PotholeHellhole · 07/04/2021 14:15

@ThatsShitTryHarder

“Dumpster fire”?

Is LOJ identifying as American now?

Embarrassing, and from a man who must be pushing 40 now.

Is this Owen?

New book "Trans" by Helen Joyce
ArabellaScott · 07/04/2021 14:23

OJ is 36. Practically a boomer in today's money.

Defaultname · 07/04/2021 16:17

Can't see any reason why this couldn't be run as a lottery, with everyone who fancies a chance to be the lucky girl paying a pound,

Proceeds could go towards buying a Big Mac and Fries.

RoyalCorgi · 07/04/2021 16:22

#84 on the bestsellers list now!

Currently showing at number 82. (And number one in the rather more niche psychology and violence category.) That's impressive for a book that hasn't been published yet. Makes me hopeful that the backlash against trans ideology is underway.

PotholeHellhole · 07/04/2021 18:44

Twitter quote from someone called Katie Sangwell.

Got my pre-order in today. As a transsexual I'm looking forward to reading it.
On another note, have you found any transwomen to have your baby yet?

twitter.com/Katie_Sangwell/status/1379533460277108736?s=19

Grin I like the cut of Katie's jib!

BoreOfWhabylon · 07/04/2021 19:25

#73 now!

Belleager · 17/07/2021 18:07

@PotholeHellhole

Twitter quote from someone called Katie Sangwell.

Got my pre-order in today. As a transsexual I'm looking forward to reading it.
On another note, have you found any transwomen to have your baby yet?

twitter.com/Katie_Sangwell/status/1379533460277108736?s=19

Grin I like the cut of Katie's jib!

I think Helen noticed that phenomenon too ...

"Now what will our true believer do if they need a gestational surrogate?

I am familiar with some men in this situation. They spend a good deal of time harassing the women they call TERFs, and trying to get them fired. But when it comes to something central to their own lives, their beliefs fly out the window. The distinction between male and female that they refuse to admit even exists is tacitly accepted once it is crucial to something they really want."

Great book.

Radio4ordie · 17/07/2021 18:28

[quote Xiaoxiong]@toocold54 it's difficult to find a book that isn't a memoir of one person's trans experience, which, while often very sad, are by definition personal and anecdotal. To try to educate myself on both sides of this issue I read quite a few. Much more useful to challenge myself and my own views were Unbound by Arlene Stein and Transgender History by Susan Stryker.

I started Juno Dawson's book The Gender Games but couldn't finish it and it shared the problems of many of the memoirs, being mainly anecdotal and dare I say, navel gazing and rather wrapped up in their own experience with no exploration of any impact the person's triumphant transition may have on the people and communities around them.

I felt the need to read all these when desperately trying to understand what was going on and to give the other side of the argument a fair hearing. I would recommend the Stein and Stryker books to anyone on here, as it's important to educate ourselves fully and keep an open mind.

Reading these books certainly convinced me that on balance, I find gender critical arguments are more convincing and coherent. But the miseries of the memoirs also convinced me that we need to massively increase mental health provision, reduce the time teenagers spend online thinking about this stuff, accept LGB people, especially kids, unconditionally and eradicate homophobia, and try to widen our bandwidth of what it means to be a man or a woman without permanently medicalising children or causing a permanent loss of function through surgery on healthy bodies. [/quote]
I find gender critical arguments are more convincing and coherent. But the miseries of the memoirs also convinced me that we need to massively increase mental health provision, reduce the time teenagers spend online thinking about this stuff, accept LGB people, especially kids, unconditionally and eradicate homophobia, and try to widen our bandwidth of what it means to be a man or a woman without permanently medicalising children or causing a permanent loss of function through surgery on healthy bodies.

So much this.

superram · 17/07/2021 19:07

Bought through hive-thanks for both recommendations, will use hive again!