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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sunday times 'Style' sexism on surrogacy

100 replies

Carriemac · 21/03/2021 09:47

In the Style section- really? Having a baby via surrogacy is not a fashion choice. One comment on Sophie's self obsessed column in her 'journey' says More female reproductive exploitation rebranded as a necessity for the wealthy and entitled. And I completely agree.

OP posts:
OhHolyJesus · 23/03/2021 19:02

It does Kimye

Beresiner was a Beauty Editor I think for Style.

For me surrogacy as a topic is best left to the news section or columnist like Janice Turner. I've got no problem with Beresiner or her colleague Paul Morgan Bentley doing interview or writing a one off feature as long as it's balanced.

Beresiner has Baby M now and her story has been shared so maybe there will be weekly interviews with others pursuing if surrogacy'. Maybe it will be Khloe K next week as she's been making plans.

I imagine the Times are trying to keep her working during what I imagine is currently her maternity leave (?) and another 'surrogacy journey' will be what we read about to keep the column going.

I don't think such a serious, emotive topic should be juxtaposed with skin cream, nail trends and the newest handbags, though it is at the back along with Dolly Alderton's agony aunt column which was about anorexia last week.

There's something about it that is a bit...flippant. As has been noted in the comments section.

TheRabbitOfCaerbannog · 23/03/2021 19:12

*I don't think such a serious, emotive topic should be juxtaposed with skin cream, nail trends and the newest handbags, though it is at the back along with Dolly Alderton's agony aunt column which was about anorexia last week.

There's something about it that is a bit...flippant. As has been noted in the comments section.*

This is a really good point OhHoly it feels very consumerist, sandwiched between articles for beauty products and clothes, it's quite throwaway. This is about women's and babies lives and about a really unequal power dynamic between people who can pay for a baby and women who need money.

FightingTheFoo · 23/03/2021 20:09

ST Style also have India Knight writing for them despite that she has never publicly addressed the fact her relationship with former MP Eric Joyce was used in court to mitigate his sentence for watching Class A videos of children being sexually abused and raped.

As far as is known she is still with a Joyce despite his conviction and the last publicly known thing about her personal life is that her teenage daughter now lives with her father.

Some have speculated it's because a child would not be allowed to live in the same abode as a convicted sex offender.

So. There's also that.

OhHolyJesus · 23/03/2021 22:00

Wow. I didn't know that about India Knight!

So Style is basically about fashion, make up, skin care and the words of a paedophile apologists and a baby buyers.

I feel quite sick.

FannyCann · 24/03/2021 20:31

Neither did I @OhHolyJesus How disappointing. Sad

YouSetTheTone · 25/03/2021 07:13

I too noticed the comment about Ollie Locke being friendly with Carrie Symonds.

As a pp noted I don’t think Carrie would offer to rent her womb for Ollie... I’m new to the ethics around surrogacy and I’m becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the power play involved in it. There do seem to be instances of surrogacy where it is altruistic and benevolent- family members/ long standing friends perhaps being surrogates. But on a larger scale it is rife for abuse and exploitation and contributes to women being used by virtue of their biology, and seen generally as ‘meat Lego’ (a memorable phrase from a poster on a different thread!)

merrymouse · 25/03/2021 07:39

“We’re mixing it up, so it’ll be whoever’s swims best on the day and we’ll never know,”

Except that at some point it is likely that your child will need to know for health reasons.

“Gareth says it’s like the British government allows surrogacy, but it really don’t want you to do it.’’

Because it is very difficult to regulate an exchange where there is such an imbalance between the parties, and where the rights of a third party - the child - must be protected.

The rules in America are more progressive and it feels like what we want to do is much more accepted and regulated.

No, America just has an appalling human rights record, particularly where women are concerned.

I don’t think it’s possible to ban surrogacy, because there is no way to stop informal surrogacy without harming the interests of the child. However by banning commercial surrogacy you can at least restrict it to people who for whatever reason feel they are acting out of altruism, and you can create laws that protect the rights of the birth mother.

Juliesipadwillcallyouback · 25/03/2021 07:51

From the article:

This might be the moment to suggest that adopting might be an option, but I have found that suggestion frustrating for the implication that adoption is the responsibility of the infertile.

They are not 'infertile'. They just need a woman for reproductive labour. Say what it is for gods sake!

I'm another who is Hmm at them putting people's objections to surrogacy on a par with objections to gay marriage. I think that's a very deliberate tactic, and we know where we have seen it before!

I can't see the comments either.

FannyCann · 25/03/2021 08:14

I was scrolling through my mass of screenshots looking for something and coincidentally found this one. No idea which article it came from - any detectives here - looks like huff post circa October 2019.

Anyway I was struck by the wording regarding the Swiss approach to surrogacy and pre-birth orders.

"Swiss civil law prohibits a pregnant woman from actively abandoning her rights regarding the child before it is born"

Because this is the nub of a pre-birth order.

Getting a woman to actively abandon her rights. This also happens regarding the woman's health decisions - I recently saw an article about women signing away ALL health decisions to the commissioning parents (in the USA). Imagine doing that! Safeguarding is so strong in NHS culture I don't think it would ever be allowed here which speaks volumes for places where it is allowed and for the UK to seek to encourage women to abandon their rights as a child.

Sunday times 'Style' sexism on surrogacy
merrymouse · 25/03/2021 08:28

I recently saw an article about women signing away ALL health decisions to the commissioning parents (in the USA)

So if the commissioning parents decide to disappear, a child is born without a legal parent, and this is built into the system.

Obviously if a woman dies in child birth this situation can occur through tragedy, but we generally regard this as a ‘bad’ thing.

merrymouse · 25/03/2021 08:33

I wonder how a pre-birth contract can accommodate the fact that there may be a conflict between the preserving the health of the mother and health of the child? I don’t understand how this can work in practice.

LizziesTwin · 25/03/2021 08:44

I think the kind thing for Carrie to do would be to bear a child for Ollie. Isn’t that what ‘be kind’ is all about?

It’s like saying prostitution is ‘work’, it’s only work for other women to do, not women ‘like us’.

TheRabbitOfCaerbannog · 25/03/2021 09:28

However by banning commercial surrogacy you can at least restrict it to people who for whatever reason feel they are acting out of altruism, and you can create laws that protect the rights of the birth mother.

Hear, hear. Women are not incubators to rent. There may be those who wish to behave altruistically (although as we have seen with recent cases like the woman who is risking her own health to do it after multiple births, there may be more to it than that), but it is not for those women to dictate how we view women as a class and what entitlement society has over their bodies. I think even with altruistic surrogacy there should be better safeguarding. Stories like "surrogacy is an addiction - like extreme babysitting" are given a light hearted spin, the reality is that multiple, repeated births are increasingly dangerous for women's health and this women should maybe be talking through her issues around this rather than considering carrying another child: www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/surrogacy-addictive-see-role-extreme-babysitting/

	"The number of children a woman has increases her risks during her next pregnancy
	Too many pregnancies can deplete mother's nutrients and stretch her uterus"

"Some experts believe that having pregnancies too close together doesn't give the mother time to recover after losing nutrients such as iron and folate after pregnancy and breastfeeding. This is called maternal depletion syndrome"

edition.cnn.com/2011/11/01/health/multiple-pregnancies-mother/index.html

We have organisations working to prevent women having multiple pregnancies in the developing world, but with numerous surrogacy cases here, it's all FINE because a nice middle class couple wants a baby:

They're also more likely to have multiple babies in one pregnancy - which is higher risk:
www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/multiple-births-are-biggest-health-risk-in-ivf-treatment-480737.html

OhHolyJesus · 25/03/2021 11:40

Without distracting from the important points recently shared I thought I'd post this. Another review of BBC Three's The Surrogates and again from a magazine focused on fashion and skin cream; here the Stylist complains that there were no women of colour represented in the documentary series.

www.stylist.co.uk/entertainment/the-surrogates-bbc/495523

"There is currently an increasing conversation surrounding maternity and the alarming dangers for ethnic minority women during pregnancy and childbirth, often caused by systemic racism and bias in maternal care. This means there is a growing number of women from all backgrounds seeking alternative methods for pregnancy, including surrogacy, and there are agencies set up specifically to cater for diverse parents and birth mothers. Could the researchers not have found one woman of colour to take part? It’s certainly a glaring omission for a docuseries with such a worthy mandate but it does answer a lot of questions about surrogacy in the UK that is grounded in real, relatable human experiences – albeit through a white lens."

Well what an interesting point! Had a poor black or asian surrogate mother been found to examine surrogacy under a 'brown' lens would that have highlighted the point about surrogacy being exploitative? Obviously not all black women are poor and but was this deliberately avoided by the BBC or an oversight or neglect of being inclusive?

The article isn't probing the real issues at all but merely spinning it for their own 'inclusiveness' I think, had they really thought about that point they may have found out more:

"In 16 weeks, she has accumulated £7,000 worth of receipts, from childcare for her son to beauty products to counter the pregnancy hormones’ effects on her skin, but mostly for keeping the baby healthy for nine months. “The client is the baby,” she says but points out that her health and life is also at risk. “There’s no amount of money that takes away that edge of being a surrogate.”

OhHolyJesus · 25/03/2021 13:28

@merrymouse

I think this is a good example of what happens where there is a conflict between the health/life of the mother and the pregnancy/child.

This podcast interviews a woman who was pregnant at the time with a commercial gestational (her egg) surrogate baby and the father was a single man.

When she had a health issue the father of the child asked her to go against her Dr advice for his benefit.

This is a US situation but it answers your question I think.

podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/venus-rising/id1481872967?i=1000467220094

FannyCann · 25/03/2021 13:29

@merrymouse there's a bit about the surrogacy contracts in this article. Even signing away decisions around withdrawing life support should the pregnant woman have some sort of disaster at a stage when keeping her going for a bit longer may improve the survival chances of the baby.

"If the surrogate is in her second or third trimester of pregnancy and in the event that medical life support equipment is required to preserve and maintain the life of the Surrogate and if requested by the Intended Parents, the Surrogate and her husband agree that the Surrogate’s life will be sustained with life support equipment for a period to achieve viability of the fetus taking into account the best interests and well-being of the fetus"

www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2017/11/20390/

FannyCann · 25/03/2021 13:30

Yes. In the podcast @OhHolyJesus has posted the surrogate mother actually had to spell out to the commissioning father that if she died he wouldn't get a baby! ConfusedAngry

FannyCann · 25/03/2021 18:18

Found the link to the recent article about commissioning parents dictating healthcare.

"Jordan McCutcheon, a 28-year-old surrogate and dental assistant, told Vice she signed a contract allowing her baby’s parents to make her medical choices, including the decision for her to not get the coronavirus vaccine."

I honestly don't know how this is legal.

nypost.com/2021/03/10/anti-vax-parents-demand-surrogates-avoid-the-covid-vaccine/

OhHolyJesus · 29/03/2021 12:27

Ollie and husband Gareth are "storing up a nice full load" of semen. They are also creating nursery and having the house baby proofed - before they have even travelled to the US to impregnate a surrogate mother.

How lovely.

metro.co.uk/2021/03/29/ollie-locke-and-husband-storing-up-nice-full-load-for-surrogacy-14322116/

FannyCann · 29/03/2021 13:26

Eurghh. What an annoying article. Shallow and uncritical and also not giving accurate information.

Plus this fashion among gays for mixing up the sperm as it doesn't matter whose it is. Apart from the fact that the child may well want to know as they grow up, I bet I. The event of a divorce there is a rush to establish ownership.

OhHolyJesus · 29/03/2021 16:26

@merrymouse

Hope you don't mind being tagged. I found this, on your point about the conflict between the health of the mother and the life of the baby...

“The intended mother was going so far as to ask me if the surrogate actually got the vaccine, could she then turn around and request a termination of the pregnancy,” one surrogacy manager said. “It just really exemplified, for me, that severe level of anxiety that some people have.”

Extreme anxiety around the vaccine wouldn't be my first thought in response to that question. I wonder how much a 'surrogacy manager' gets paid?

www.bioedge.org/bioethics/commissioning-parents-panicking-over-surrogate-mothers-vaccinations/13749

Linked to the VICE article

"McCutcheon, who lives in Marietta, Ohio, jokingly calls herself a “rent-a-womb.” As a surrogate, she says her connection to the baby currently growing inside her is nothing like the motherly love she felt when she carried her own 3-year-old twins. This is a job, and as part of that job, she signed a contract to let the baby’s parents make medical choices for her, including whether to get the COVID-19 vaccine."

You can now match to a likeminded anti-vaxxer as your surrogate mother.

www.vice.com/en/article/qjpqe3/parents-are-demanding-surrogates-who-wont-get-the-covid-vaccine

Carefulvulvadriver · 30/03/2021 12:27

I suspect there's a separate thread on this already, but if anyone hasnt watched the BBC3/OU (FFS!) documentary series on surrogacy, please do! You couldnt get a better (unintended) setting out of the feminist objection to surrogacy: one young woman offering up her womb (and ultimately her relationship) to her BOSS (coercive? Much?) who incidentally whisks her off for an early induction and all the pain and danger that entails because she's worried (with no apparent evidence) the surrogate's stress might be damaging HER baby; a single gay man spitting with venom at how "powerful" surrogates are and how it's so unfair that society sees the evil surrogates as the victims, when really their sympathies should sit with the poor men being denied free access to any and every womb they want; oh and the disturbing deep-seated feelings of inadequacy/low self esteem expressed by a number of the surrogates, for whom offering up their womb is seen as the ultimate validation in our sick society. It really is worth a watch.

OhHolyJesus · 04/04/2021 09:36

"Even better, why can’t we just choose kindness, especially now?"

There we are again...kindness. Confused

NotBadConsidering · 04/04/2021 10:49

It’s a problem isn’t it? Sophie’s entire family depends on surrogacy having legitimacy. If it was, in theory, to be banned at some point in the future, it would signal that Sophie’s family was created out of a situation that at that point in the future will be considered exploitative. This would be, for want of a better description, a bit of a mind fuck. There is a real child there, for whom the creation of a family unit has been documented throughout. So Sophie has to hope surrogacy remains legitimate in some respects. Of course whatever happens with legislation in the future wouldn’t undermine their existence as a loving family.

There are similar parallels to those parents who have put their kids on puberty blockers and cross sex hormones. To admit they’re wrong would be an awful act of self-flagellation which would be hard to take. So they plough on regardless, their convictions unwavering, asking everyone to “be kind”.

I’m not saying Sophie deep down knows surrogacy is wrong, or will eventually “see the light” so to speak, I’m just musing on the psychology of how people with such huge emotional investment - in these cases, the biggest there is, the love for a child - can ever think rationally.