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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why aren’t parents worried about the effects of hormones on their children.

109 replies

Sidewalksue · 20/03/2021 23:11

3rd person I know has put on FB their daughter is now identifying as male and what a disgrace it is that they can’t access hormones and have to go through puberty.
Not one is going, all this might fuck my children for life, make them infertile, leave them with a catalogue of issues decades down the line. And what if as pre-teens they haven’t made a good decision that they can’t reverse. Maybe it’s a good idea to hang back and wait before filling my children full of unnecessary drugs.
One works in the medical profession and I am bewildered by the lack of thought past this moment in time.
How many children are going to blame their parents for wanting to give in so easily (luckily they do have to wait for hormone treatment).

OP posts:
oxalisRed · 21/03/2021 10:20

I'm parent to an 18yr who has identified as trans. There's nothing we can do now to prevent her from medicating - our only hope is that the long waiting list will give her time to become content in her own body, rather than going on drugs and harming her body to create a change that she thinks will be the solution to her problem.

But in the last few years, her mental health has not been good - she has the trifecta of ASD, depression and eating disorder. She believes that changing her body will alleviate a lot of her mental unhappiness. Husband seems to agree with daughter that "everything is a trade off" and the side unknown and irreversible effects may be worth the improvement to her mental health.

But the main reason why I haven't come down hard against my daughter's view is because she's my daughter, she's vulnerable and I want to maintain a good relationship with her. If I don't show willingness to hear her perspective (she knows that I don't agree with her), I fear that she will proceed without us anyway and cut contact, we would really lose her then. It's entirely fear driven, not because I agree that she "doesn't feel like a girl, therefore she must be a boy".

lionheart · 21/03/2021 10:25

Compare and contrast:

mercatornet.com/my-15-year-old-transgender-son-is-going-through-menopause/61413/

'“My 15-year-old transgender son is going through menopause — and I’m so proud of him.” As headlines go, this is gob-smacking. So proud that her child will be spayed? So proud that her daughter’s fertility will be destroyed? So proud that her daughter is going to be a client of the pharmaceutical industry for the rest of her life?'

thepostmillennial.com/giving-teens-cross-sex-hormones-causes-premature-aging?fbclid=IwAR3nP9T4lWt3z2cxCDkNSXEua-eBEmmgfu_bTiEKY5SRorhSynzZHYJqYrQ

IvyTwines · 21/03/2021 10:26

@HermioneMakepeace

I came across the term ‘Munchausen Moms’. I wonder if there might be some truth in it in some cases.

I am always suspicious when an all-boy family have one who transitions and is suddenly wearing dresses, pigtails and doing ballet.

It feels a bit like the 2020s version of those parents who bring their child up strictly vegan, disregarding the health implications.
Sophoclesthefox · 21/03/2021 10:53

Excellent post, notbad 👏🏼

Some flowers for you and your daughter, oxalisred Flowers it must be so tough.

HermioneMakepeace · 21/03/2021 11:26

It feels a bit like the 2020s version of those parents who bring their child up strictly vegan, disregarding the health implications.

@IvyTwines I am one of those parents and there is overwhelming evidence that a plant-based diet is the healthiest. My two DC are extremely healthy. They are both a good weight, play a lot of sport and are never ill.

I am a bit insulted by your assertion that a plant-based diet is on a par with pumping a child full of hormones and chopping bits of them off.

JustTurtlesAllTheWayDown · 21/03/2021 12:28

I think it varies enormously, depending on the parent.
Some rely on the advice they're getting from certain charities, thinking they're 'experts', and who are going to be absolutely raging when the effects hit their children and they find out there was little evidence and they were being sold ideology.
Others are walking a desperate tightrope with children who are struggling, and are trying to find a path forward that is best for their child.
These first two, I have a huge amount of sympathy for.
Others (and one of these I know personally) are Gender True Believers and are actively campaigning for their children to go on puberty blockers or full cross-sex hormones as soon as puberty is imminent because they believe in wrong body theory, and any evidence that this will cause lasting physical damage to their child is immediately dismissed as transphobic.
This last lot, I only have sympathy for their children.

As an aside, I'd like to agree with HermioneMakepeace that a vegan diet is nothing like giving children hormones and is often a lot more healthy than an omnivore one.

FlyPassed · 21/03/2021 12:42

I highly recommend reading Jonathan Haidt's The Righteous Mind. It's based on the principles of moral psychology, and in it he talks about how instinct comes first and the rational mind finds ways to justify the instinct, even if it contradicts facts and evidence. A kind of post-hoc justification. He sets out the moral framework that we (usually unconsciously) use e.g. care/harm, fairness/cheating, loyalty/betrayal etc.

I think the pertinent one here is the care/harm foundation. These parents want what's best for the child* and the loudest, socially acceptable narrative is thst care = affirmation.

I'm probably not explaining it very well, but I really recommend the book. Coddling of the American Mind is also very good (and relevant to differences between Gen Z and older generations), and there are lots of interviews and lectures, of his, on YouTube.

*notwithstanding homophobes like the man put forward by the ACLU at last week's senate hearing

IvyTwines · 21/03/2021 13:08

'As an aside, I'd like to agree with HermioneMakepeace that a vegan diet is nothing like giving children hormones and is often a lot more healthy than an omnivore one.'

I think the debate around this is quite similar: the long term health implications are unclear, the arguments get very heated very quickly, and you can find many, including medics, arguing against or for. The five children I personally know being brought up vegan or on restricted diets are all small for their ages (and when I'm buying clothes as presents I'm asked to age down). I was a strict, and, I thought, well-informed ethical vegetarian for 20 years but desisted on medical advice. I understand the ethical and environmental argument for veganism but given the debate around the health implications I think it's something an individual should choose when they come of age, rather than having imposed on them.

HermioneMakepeace · 21/03/2021 13:11

@IvyTwines May I suggest you start another thread with your anti-vegan views? I would love to debate this with you, but do not want to derail this thread.

BlackWaveComing · 21/03/2021 20:35

@FlyPassed

I highly recommend reading Jonathan Haidt's The Righteous Mind. It's based on the principles of moral psychology, and in it he talks about how instinct comes first and the rational mind finds ways to justify the instinct, even if it contradicts facts and evidence. A kind of post-hoc justification. He sets out the moral framework that we (usually unconsciously) use e.g. care/harm, fairness/cheating, loyalty/betrayal etc.

I think the pertinent one here is the care/harm foundation. These parents want what's best for the child* and the loudest, socially acceptable narrative is thst care = affirmation.

I'm probably not explaining it very well, but I really recommend the book. Coddling of the American Mind is also very good (and relevant to differences between Gen Z and older generations), and there are lots of interviews and lectures, of his, on YouTube.

*notwithstanding homophobes like the man put forward by the ACLU at last week's senate hearing

This makes sense, and I guess some of us are lucky that our instinct says transitioning minors is a deeply unethical parental act.

I truly don't get other responses though. I'm trying to think of why the suicide threat didn't make me instinctively grab for hormones, and I think it's because - as an abuse survivor - I'm hyper aware of when bring manipulated. The threat (not from my kids but from other parents!) just made me furious.

Anger, I think, is protective at times, and allows a different response.

BlackWaveComing · 21/03/2021 20:36

*when I'm being

persistentwoman · 21/03/2021 23:03

Finally - research happening. I wonder if they'll be piled on for transphobia / shut down as so many previous attempts at research have been?
Hopefully this is a serious ethical organisation Leafstamp ?

Wandawomble · 21/03/2021 23:54

@NotBadConsidering

I deal with suicidal children and teenagers on a regular basis. They are assessed, their intent evaluated, and a safety plan is put in place. Usually this safety plan involves constant supervision at home with safeguards in place. If the risk is deemed very high and/or full supervision of a child who has real intent cannot be provided, the child is admitted to a mental health unit. This is very rare, compared to the number of presentations. The vast majority of the time a child can be kept safe and prevented from serious self-harm at home, with good outpatient mental health support. Obviously mental health support for children and adolescents isn’t as good as it could be, and is geographically variable but management does not include acquiescing to the demands of the child.

I have yet to have it explained to me how children who are apparently suicidal from their lack of gender affirmation are inherently harder to keep safe than others who present for other reasons. Are they more committed to their suicidal ideation? If that is the case, why aren’t inpatient child mental health units full of children who are suicidal because of lack of gender affirmation? And if they are more committed to their suicidal ideation, does that mean the solution is to acquiesce and give them treatments that don’t offer any psychological benefit but incontrovertibly lead to physical harm, or escalate their mental health support?

The Tavistock admitted that suicide in their experience has been rare, one case, and their own evidence shows the children don’t benefit psychologically. So the reasons they still want to give children puberty blockers are....what? What else is there?

The answer is, it’s a lie. Children who want medical gender affirmation are no more likely to be presenting to the emergency departments, waiting for acute mental health assessments, taking up beds in inpatient mental health units than any other children. Puberty blockers are actually given to meet an ideal that has been created, that it will be wonderful for a child to be able to be more like the sex they want to be when they’re older. I know this because I know children who have expressed exactly zero suicidal ideation who have been put on puberty blockers. The suicide stats are just a front, because none of the gender clinics want to admit they’re using puberty blockers out of a pursuit for an ideal that adults have told them they want current children to have that they didn’t have: to “pass” better. When Norman Spack said he was “salivating” at the idea of giving children puberty blockers, he wasn’t talking about “salivating” about the idea of reducing suicidal ideation.

Parents are incredibly vulnerable and they’ve been led to believe, by clinics and certain organisations, that this is the only pathway to true happiness, so when asked to consider risks and negatives of these drugs, it’s very difficult. There are a number of professionals around the world who deserve a great deal of scrutiny for this.

This post is jaw dropping and needs to be shared widely.
quixote9 · 22/03/2021 02:50

Presumably everybody at this point has an older generation female relative who's been on hormone replacement therapy.

That's not even a cross sex hormone, merely a sex hormone, and look at all the hyperventilation around it. Zomg, don't stay on it long. Zomg take the lowest dose possible. Zomg cancer. And that's without throwing fertility into the mix.

So when it comes to older women, HRT has to be tightly controlled so the dear old biddies don't stupidly hurt themselves. Or something.

But teenagers taking cross sex HRT shouldn't have a care in the world and should engulf the stuff by the gross.

As the computers used to say, "Does Not Compute."

Leafstamp · 22/03/2021 07:38

@persistentwoman

Finally - research happening. I wonder if they'll be piled on for transphobia / shut down as so many previous attempts at research have been? Hopefully this is a serious ethical organisation Leafstamp ?
From their website:

We are an independent body that informs policy and public debate about the ethical questions raised by biological and medical research.

However I saw some chat on Twitter that said the study is funded by GIRES.

So it’s difficult to tell. If anyone has knowledge/views, I’d be interested to know more.

ChattyLion · 22/03/2021 07:38

Flowers solidarity for everyone currently affected by this political phenomenon. Trying to hold on to reality-based responses to it for the sake of your kids or other people very close to you, when influential others around them won’t do that, must be very stressful and divisive and exhausting.

Noregrets78 · 22/03/2021 08:32

Another one here going through it at the moment - not broadcasting it on Facebook as the further we go round publicising it, the harder it will be if she changes her mind.
I'm terrified of the whole thing - I know the side effects, and do not believe it will help her mental health, or reduce suicide. Quite the contrary I believe it's another symptom of her mental health difficulties.
Feeling this way and doing what's best for my daughter is exhausting. CAMHS are clear that I should be affirming, and believe I need help to deal with my issues accepting 'my son'. I have explained my position but it makes no sense.
Even those who are sympathetic suggest I speak to Mermaids, who are heavily pro-trans.
I am reliant on the long waiting list at GIDS to buy us time but it's pot luck and a dangerous game when playing with something this important.

Cailleach1 · 22/03/2021 09:09

It must be very sad knowing that your daughter will very likely end up without the choice of being able to have children, if they want them in the future. Or being able to breastfeed them if their circumstances means they are still able to have children.

I think the very young age they now give these girls puberty blockers and then onto testosterone maybe be deemed to be bordering on criminal as this plays out in the future. Certainly if the lack of a sound basis is true. If they are doing this to children and young people because they are capitulating to political lobbying, then I think that makes it worse and they are complicit in carrying out this treatment without due diligence.

I would feel very cheated if my body had been changed to such an extent that I was left without a choice to have children in adulthood. Decisions made on quite questionable grounds in childhood which take away choices in adulthood. Very fundamental choices. Not to mention the effects on their bodies. Whether they stay on the medications or de-transition. The damage will have been done.

gardenbird48 · 22/03/2021 09:09

Flowers Flowers Noregrets I can’t imagine what you are going through - it must be so hard pushing against the ‘experts’ when they advocate something you know will be harmful to your child. The website Transgender Trend (check you’ve got the right one, the tras made one with an almost identical name to promote affirmation) if you haven’t seen it already may offer some helpful advice.

So when it comes to older women, HRT has to be tightly controlled so the dear old biddies don't stupidly hurt themselves. Or something.

Absolutely Quixote - and when women who want sterilisation, either because their families are complete or for pain reduction due to a medical condition) are denied treatment until past the age of 30 because ‘they might change their mind’, yet the gender clinics are prescribing treatment to children and young people that will damage their fertility and could result in major surgery being essential (due to atrophy of vagina or uterus).

How can they justify this when there is no evidence to support it?

BitMuch · 22/03/2021 09:12

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toffeebutterpopcorn · 22/03/2021 09:13

But then the media seems full of surrogacy families (recent ones of ‘throples’ - 3 dads) all glowing with no negative commentary or warning notes. I read one where there were 3 dads, 2 kids and the mums barely mentioned.

gardenbird48 · 22/03/2021 09:25

What do we know so far:

  • There is no evidence the proves that puberty blockers/hormone treatment improved psychological outcome for patients
  • the WPATH guidelines were downgraded to something that won’t provide a defence to practitioners using them if challenged legally
  • there is wholly inadequate research into the emerging problem of misdiagnosis and resulting numbers of patients who have had unnecessary major surgery
  • the High Court has made its judgement on the likely inability of children and young people to provide informed consent, yet private clinics (I’m not sure what GIDS are doing) are still promoting their services and prescribing to young people with zero health checks.

The no win no fee medical negligence lawyers are anticipating a large number of cases coming through soon. Below is the introduction to evidence needed - I think it is all there already. I’m so sad for the kids caught up in this.

The evidence can help you prove that the clinical or medical treatment provided fell below the standard of a competent and skilled practitioner in the relevant field of medicine at that time. Once this is established, the injured person must also prove that they suffered pain and suffering as a result

Noregrets78 · 22/03/2021 12:04

Would be good to see affected parents more active on the LGBT children board. It's very quiet over there, was the first place I looked for guidance. I certainly didn't realise how much of the support is actually in the feminist area.

Sidewalksue · 22/03/2021 18:35

I think it’s quite easy for a 12 year old to say they never want children, a 32 year old will give a different answer (I did). Adult experience should trump this.

OP posts: