Pronouns help please

[Springchickpea]

I know this has been done to death, but I’ve just read a work email and seen that our director has put his pronouns on his email signature. We also have some new EDI training coming up, and we take a lot of advice from ‘inclusive employers’. I fear we are about to be asked to do pronouns and I want to be prepared.

I want to approach from the angle that highlighting minorities groups’ differences are damaging and I know that there are some academic research papers that highlight this but would like some help crafting my argument please. I want to stick to why this is bad for women, why I don’t want to advertise my sex, and to stay away from the other topic.

Can anyone help please? It just feels so depressing.

Fwiw, I am a regular MNetter, came for the baby stuff, stayed for the feminism but post a lot about children and family issues and don’t necessarily want my colleagues to read.

Hi Spring

Good for you standing up to this. I'm no expert, but I think one thing I've seen suggested is asking to see the Equality Impact Assessment for this proposal.

Also, are you wanting to oppose it generally, or just not do it yourself? It may help the wiser ones here to help you depending on your answer to this.

Good luck with it all.

In a nutshell, regardless of what you think of the other issue an employer pushing staff to reveal more personal information than they are comfortable with isn't looking after their staff.

Thanks @Leafstamp I think I’m open to both options. One to say why I personally will not join, and another to ask the business to consider whether it is really within women's interests to highlight our sex.

@LolaSmiles yes! That’s exactly it. They’re doing it because they are being “inclusive” but they haven’t considered it’s actually a really complicated issue

Maybe some useful info here:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4032097-Pronouns-at-work-where-do-I-stand-Advice

Studies have shown that women drawing even more attention to their sex are even more discriminated against- need to find the link

Could you raise it from that angle, assuming they are taking the line that pronouns align with gender identity.

For example wanting people to declare pronouns puts someone who might have a different gender identity to their sex to reveal this when actually they were quite happy getting on with their work (if they put their gender ID pronouns to avoid misleading then work have effectively pushed them to out themselves), also for those with no gender identity there is the problem that a mandatory pronouns for gender ID is signing them up for an identity they don't have.

Even if you accept the premise that gender identity is a reason for mandatory pronouns, it's full of issues.

I'd honestly just tell him to stop being such a transphobic dipstick and that he had no right to pressure people to out themselves at his convenience instead of their own, but I'm feeling really angry at the world right now.

This is actually covered in the yogyakarta principles, because it used to be a basic. But the misogynists using trans rights as a disguise haven't read those, or ever thought about helping minority groups achieve employment parity with peers from a position of good will. Because to them it's about demonstrating their own superiority and dominance, not helping others!

I don't know, in the interests of inclusiveness I might turn it around and say I'm uncomfortable with drawing attention to my pronouns because I feel non gendery on the inside. Or non binary or agender or whatever the buzz words are. Somerville who used to be on here (if you lurk, Somer I often think of you and your DC and hope all is well) told HR she was agender but didn't mind people using she/her to refer to her as those pronouns referred to her biological sex, not her gender. Something like that.

So I think there's a case to be made for saying it's not on to force people to reveal their preferred pronouns relating to their inner gender as it's a very personal thing and some people might be triggered by the pressure, or not be ready to come out or any number of mental health type things.

Beat them at their own game. Anyway I am agender but I don't want to be referred to as 'it' as it's dehumanizing.

This is very helpful: legalfeminist.org.uk/tag/pronouns/

Links in the article for references.

Pronoun annunciation is against GDPR. archive.acas.org.uk/index.aspx?articleid=3717 Employers can only ask for relevant/lawful/valid information.

I’d prefer to announce my bra size...(sorry that bit isn’t helpful)

Thanks everyone, I knew I could count on MN to help arm me for this battle. I know that a colleague has asked why we ask new starters for gender, gender identity but not sex before as it was relevant to some EDI statistical analysis they were doing and the response was unsatisfactory.

Must have been discussed before, but isn't one of the basic arguments (nothing to do with feminism) that what other people call you is not for you to prescribe. If you're there, then your name will suffice, if you're not there, then who cares as long as it's not derogatory?

@Leafstamp

Must have been discussed before, but isn't one of the basic arguments (nothing to do with feminism) that what other people call you is not for you to prescribe. If you're there, then your name will suffice, if you're not there, then who cares as long as it's not derogatory?

Exactly what I think. If I'm not there I'm not going to care what you call me.

Trans people have a really difficult time - more than half experience family rejection, a fifth experience homelessness, they have often lost their friends and they have high unemployment rates.

So, as an act of support for a vulnerable minority, just pop you pronouns at the end of you email - you'll be fine, and you'll be doing a nice thing.

@Shizuku

Trans people have a really difficult time - more than half experience family rejection, a fifth experience homelessness, they have often lost their friends and they have high unemployment rates.

So, as an act of support for a vulnerable minority, just pop you pronouns at the end of you email - you'll be fine, and you'll be doing a nice thing.

Can you post the links for these statistics, please @Shizuku? I'm very interested. Thank you.

I’m not rejecting anyone else’s right to use their pronouns or express themselves any way they like @Shizuku

I am concerned that women may be discriminated against (consciously or unconsciously) and may also suffer ‘stereotype threat’ as a direct result of drawing attention to their female status. Ultimately my biological sex, gender, whatever, has no bearing on my ability to do my job and I don’t feel the need to highlight it.

@Apileofballyhoo

static1.squarespace.com/static/566c7f0c2399a3bdabb57553/t/566cbf2c57eb8de92a5392e6/1449967404768/ntds_full.pdf

@Springchickpea

I’m not rejecting anyone else’s right to use their pronouns or express themselves any way they like *@Shizuku*

I am concerned that women may be discriminated against (consciously or unconsciously) and may also suffer ‘stereotype threat’ as a direct result of drawing attention to their female status. Ultimately my biological sex, gender, whatever, has no bearing on my ability to do my job and I don’t feel the need to highlight it.

You're in a pickle then, because if you don't put them, people may assume you are a bigot - not saying you are, but that may be the assumption.

You could put male pronouns maybe?

You're in a pickle then, because if you don't put them, people may assume you are a bigot - not saying you are, but that may be the assumption.

Why would they assume that, when there are trans people not willing to come out at work (for fear of encountering transphobic discrimination) and people still uncertain what their gender identity is.

An environment where you are expected to provide your pronouns is an environment that feigns transinclusivity, at the price of throwing people under the bus if they are still on their gender identity journey.

Oh, and it's shit for women.

Pretty sure most people won’t assume I’m a bigot. But why is that always the threat for anyone who centres the needs of women?

I’m pretty sure people (often men, not always) are trying to be “inclusive” without fully appreciating the complexity of the situation.

You're in a pickle then, because if you don't put them, people may assume you are a bigot - not saying you are, but that may be the assumption.

This is why a co-ordinated, reasoned response would be good. I'm a man, but as I've heard before about the prejudicial effect on women putting their pronouns on emails, I would prefer not to list pronouns either and I would support members of the team I manage doing the same.

By the way, that research you link to, @Shizuku , is American-based. I think something relevant to UK would be more useful.

Idiots might assume that. Sane-minded people probably wouldn't even notice.

Playing devil’s advocate a bit...

@Shizuku

Let’s assume for a minute you’re right about the bigot thing...

Why should I care if people think I’m a bigot when I know I’m not and the people who matter know I’m not?

@DadDadDad thanks for your viewpoint. As an aside, I moved organisations recently, and at the start didn’t use my full academic qualification. I have noticed a big difference in people’s attitudes to me since I popped it on my email signature. I wish it weren’t so but it was quite noticeable

@Shizuku is that document from the USA?

Those statistics don't apply to countries where it's illegal to discriminate against transgender people.